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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

washingtonpost.com

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#451

Post by thematrixturtle »

irrational wrote: post #293
rayiner wrote: post #269

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can point to the decline of organized religion and with it traditional gender roles, but then what explains the relative stability in post-Christian Europe? As far as I can tell, Europe isn’t all that post-Christian. Even countries that have low levels of people actively practicing religion still carry a strong cultural legacy from Christianity: https://www.europenowjournal.org/2019/10/02/the-catholic-nes... Co…

Who wouldn’t prefer to stay home if they had the choice? I could spend my days traveling, hiking, going to the beach, reading, working on hobbies, learning new skills, cooking, etc.

I think you misspelled changing diapers, doing laundry three times a day, spoon-feeding broccoli puree, scraping dried broccoli off the floor, shopping while trying to contain a squealing octopus, etc.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#452

Post by astrange »

jimbokun wrote: post #198
bell-cot wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Special "Help $Gender enter $Field_Where_Gender_Is_Rare" stuff makes sense, if (for whatever reason) it seems that having some fields highly gender-skewed is undesirable. And whatever the PC / ideological reaction, programs aimed the other way sound like a waste of resources. Or maybe there are a bunch of "convince women that nursing is a career for them, too", "day care workers shouldn't all be men", "ladies can bec…

> Special "Help $Gender enter $Field_Where_Gender_Is_Rare" stuff makes sense Why? Why not just let people decide for themselves what kind of jobs to pursue?

You enjoy working at a sausagefest? If you only want to do things for selfish reasons, there’s one you can use.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#453

Post by srveale »

ReactiveJelly wrote: post #419

> we must stop defining masculinity as necessarily toxic I know "toxic masculinity" is a dumb academic term that never should have become a slogan, but Andrew, Mr. Yang, that's not what it means. It's like "async functions". Not all functions are async. It's okay if a function is sync. Adjectives modify nouns to make them refer to a specific subset. It's fine to be masculine. I don't know what it means to be masculin…

> I don't know what it means to be masculine

Well, according to an earlier post today: knowing the word "parsec."

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#454

Post by antisthenes »

_bkr9 wrote: post #294
thrway99 wrote: post #61

My observation is that we are going to have a radical rebalancing of who reproduces and who doesn’t. Lot of men and women who are generally not too motivated to seek out a companion, lose weight, put in the work to make it happen just…won’t pass on genetics. Children are a lot of work and energy. I’m highly introverted and high earning. My wife was the aggressor in my case. She pretty much made it all happen. I think…

A note on fitness. Any pressure I've had to lose weight or whatnot has come from me . All female partners have said that they don't care about my weight, and some actually like some belly to rest on. That said, they have commented favourably on other physical features, and I'm not particularly overweight. I say all this just to try and fight the idea that crops up that if you're male and don't fit some jacked or "Cha…

> All female partners have said that they don't care about my weight, and some actually like some belly to rest on. That said, they have commented favourably on other physical features, and I'm not particularly overweight.

What women say and which partners they choose in reality are 2 different things. You should always keep that in mind when discussing these issues.

This isn't meant as a critique of women, rather than of people in general. Stated and actual preferences are not the same (it seems obvious once you give it some thought, yet still has to be repeated, since some people just don't get it).

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#455

Post by itronitron »

rayiner wrote: post #269
ytwombly wrote: post #150

US-based cis-hetero white man here. The data reinforce the impression you get glancing at the headlines or spending a day out anywhere in America observing other men. Dare I say it even reinforces what I know from painful firsthand experience as a man, at the lowest points in my life. I was lucky though, with a supportive family who helped me through the confusing years of early adulthood. You can point to the declin…

> You can point to the decline of organized religion and with it traditional gender roles, but then what explains the relative stability in post-Christian Europe? As far as I can tell, Europe isn’t all that post-Christian. Even countries that have low levels of people actively practicing religion still carry a strong cultural legacy from Christianity: https://www.europenowjournal.org/2019/10/02/the-catholic-nes... Co…

You mention a lot of statistics. If there is a point you wanted to make could you clarify it?

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#456

Post by rednerrus »

rhino369 wrote: post #59
bmj wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As the father of 18 year old who is not going to college and instead working as a carpenter, I don't think lumping 18 year olds with 25+ year olds makes much sense. Perhaps I have an antiquated view of family, but I don't feel his "independence" has everything to do with where he lives. I'm more than happy to have him around the house if it allows him to save money and live a better life at, say, 21.

It absolutely makes sense. The idea that an 18 year old would start their own household is an artifact from a small period in our history when 18 year olds could easily get an unskilled job that would afford a decent modest lifestyle. But that only really started in the late 40's and was over by the 70's.

An 18 year old can easily get a "unskilled" job what will give you a modest lifestyle. There are ~20 cities in America where this isn't possible but just about everywhere else it's completely possible. There is a shortage of tradesman across the country. Are you capable of doing relatively simple math, showing up on time, and working hard? There's a decent job for you in a midwestern city where you can buy a house for $120,000.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#457

Post by barry-cotter »

dan-robertson wrote: post #404
ReactiveJelly wrote: post #393

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And pointing to the decline of religion isn't very helpful for us atheists. I can't really buy into a religion I don't believe in for the sake of making society better. I'd rather try to make society better directly, I don't want to do a "noble lie". I'll gesture vaguely at "the suburbs". Low trust and alienation describes my childhood in a place where you needed a car to do anything and even when my parents let me w…

Aren’t there secular clubs that can have a large social element like rotary clubs or book clubs or even some sports like golf for example? I guess you could also try joining a church where it’s basically acceptable to be an atheist like the Unitarian Universalist church although that would maybe be too spiritual.

UU, mainline Protestantism, Reform Judaism. Religions that ask for nothing but attendance one day a week and don’t believe in anything uncomfortable for nice university educated people have been collapsing since the 60s.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#458

Post by ceasesurthinko »

c7DJTLrn wrote: post #232
BitwiseFool wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm one of these men and I hope this actually works out in the end. I sense that men also have a biological clock but we can reassure ourselves that we can keep putting off settling down because of the biological reality of male reproduction. If I just get a little more successful, then I will be more attractive in courtship. But the thing is, you lose track of time really quickly. And, it is quite the bootstrapping…

Good luck to you. I'm in the same boat and it's comforting to not be alone. I've sacrificed a social and romantic life to get to this point (20 year old, fairly well paid DevOps guy). There are days that I immensely regret leaving school at 16 and terminating my youth early but financially speaking it was the best decision ever. I just push onwards, hope for life to become fun, and hope that I won't become a cautiona…

If there's any solace for you, there are plenty of similarly brilliant kids as you that did stay in school to try to get that 'college' experience, and still are unsatisfied with themselves and feel out of place. Think about if you were in that normal streamlined path in college, would your personality and innate nature really do a 180? Highly doubt it, even though most people think they can exercise a locus of control and that external circumstances can change their deep inner character. There's a reason why you gravitated towards leaving school and being a young genius and working early. You live a unique (and impressive) life. Try to live your life out like a movie and don't look back at the what ifs. You're 20 too, haha. You're a baby. Your future is fucking unscripted. Don't worry about any of that shit. Your life is just starting.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#459

Post by mapcars »

awaythrow483 wrote: post #359
paulpauper wrote: post #111

The crisis, if there is one, is that society has less use for males who have IQs between 90-105 or so, who cannot cut it in STEM, and who are finding it hard to cope with increasingly competitive economic conditions and higher overall costs like rent, and is why many men are delaying family formation or moving back with parents (but also due to careerism for women). Men are just dropping out rather than doing low-pai…

I'm 33, Ive got a fairly high IQ, make $340k in a STEM field and enough to retire tomorrow, I'm not unattractive, and put a huge amount of effort over many years into online dating. I've pretty much given up on dating. I have a total inability to find anyone I'm interested in that is interested in me. When I was younger and I wanted to go to bars and get drunk and be an idiot I had plenty of attractive sexual partner…

Please don't put yoga and crystals into the same category. While what most people in the west are doing has little to do with the actual thing it's still probably the most important discovery made by humanity.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#460

Post by astrange »

ramesh31 wrote: post #103
philipkglass wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agreed with this until the last sentence. If men and women are on an equal footing, why are a good portion of men left without anything useful to contribute? I suppose this could hinge on the definition of "good portion." I personally don't think that a "good portion" of prime working age men or women are left without anything economically useful to contribute. American unemployment is currently low, hiring is up,…

>If men and women are on an equal footing, why are a good portion of men left without anything useful to contribute? Point being that not everyone can be a doctor or a lawyer or a physicist. There will always be a good portion of the population that really has nothing to contribute economically but their labor. For women, these labor positions are the ones that have survived our transition to a mostly service based e…

High physical strength is useful for several modern jobs we’re desperately in need of - in particular nurses and home health aides. There’s still construction too, once we defeat the NIMBYs.

Most of this “running out of work” thought is just excuses for the US’s bad economic management in the 90s-2000s; as the GP said, now we’re at 4% unemployment and anyone with skills will be able to find a way to use them. Anything can be a skill if it's unique enough - if AI took all the jobs, "being human" would be a skill. That's comparative advantage.

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