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My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

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Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#421

Post by EricE »

imiric wrote: post #234
JohnJamesRambo wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have never once needed my dishwasher to be operated remotely. Load it and press start. The dishes get clean and it has no software just buttons. If the dishes get clean what further enhancements needed to be done?

> The dishes get clean and it has no software just buttons. Playing devil's advocate, all modern appliances run software to some extent. A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex. > If the dishes get clean what further enhancements needed to be done? It's not out of the question that the firmware might need to be updated to manage liquids more efficiently, tweak cycle timings, pr…

"A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex."

Auto dispensing can be done without code. My parents had a GE that used an analog sensor for the water and varied the amount of soap dispensed based on its feedback. No microprocessor involved.

Microcontrollers are becoming more of a curse as more designers start to wedge them in just because they can; not because they are really needed.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#422

Post by throwaway2048 »

ethbr0 wrote: post #245
BruiseLee wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In case of modern appliances, you are not the only customer/user of the product. Other customers are various advertisers that are interested in data about you. The updates provide enhancements for these other customers.

We should stop calling it the advertising industry and just call it the tracking industry. Advertising just happens to be the most obvious consumer. IMHO, IoT is a clusterfuck because it's preying on users' past goodwill towards computing. Historically, computers have worked "pretty well" (especially in the last couple decades). So users, when looking at a network-enabled fridge, toaster, etc. logically assume "Oh, t…

Surveillance capitalism is a better term

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#423

Post by foepys »

tyingq wrote: post #35
christophilus wrote: post #7

I can understand the appeal of most smart devices, but since a dishwasher can’t yet load and unload itself, what is the point of an internet connected dishwasher? You have to have physically loaded it. Why not just push the start button then?

Most of them are sort of silly, but it does have some options that make use of the "smartness". The manual is here: https://www.mieleusa.com/pmedia/ZGA/TX2070/10546880-000-01_1... Most of the smart stuff is in "settings" starting on page 64. Stuff like configuring it to run only during a low electric rate period (nights). Notifying you when filters need changing. Keeping track of detergent reservoir levels.

That's all the talking points those manufacturers give you but my dishwasher can do all of this with 2 buttons, a few LEDs, and a wheel for program selection. It even opens by itself so I don't need to be present when it's finished.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#424

Post by bee_rider »

jancsika wrote: post #267
pmontra wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, it could also get functionality updates. For example they could upload a new totally different UX loved by the designers and that nobody else understands how to use ;-)

> To be fair, it could also get functionality updates This is an important point that owners[1] sometimes miss. For example, if the owner makes a deal to partner with the maker of a particular detergent tab, the owner could create a new feature that only works with those tabs and not regular powder detergent. 1: Owner: the person who owns the firmware being sent over WiFi.

And just general bug updates. Remember how buggy appliances used to be, back in the bad old days when they were too simple to run whole operating systems? A couple months after release these things will be mostly free of glitches!

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#425

Post by rootusrootus »

pmontra wrote: post #86
quacked wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are there any regulation barriers to selling "dumb" devices in the modern market? I've made the same point about pickup trucks--the 2002 Toyota Tacoma is a far preferable vehicle than the 2022 Toyota Tacoma for many truck owners, but when I've brought that up, people have pointed out that a number of laws make it impossible to sell a clone of the old version (must have backup cameras, must have X, must have Y, etc.)

I think incumbents love over regulation. A wider and wider moat.

Does not seem to be working, at least not in the automotive market. We have several new startups in the space taking a real swipe at the incumbents.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#426

Post by peteradio »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #124
da_chicken wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what is the point of an internet connected dishwasher? The purpose of IOT is pretty clear, although it is also pretty broad. It's a win-win for the manufacturer, but probably a ticking time bomb for the customer. The Good: 1. Reduce production costs by converting electronic control to digital control with COTS chips. 2. Reduce development costs by reducing the cost of correcting bug-free software. The system requir…

None of those 'good' are very good, or good at all. The buttons on the front are a few cents. On a $1000 appliance, that benefits only the manufacturer (if even them). Being able to ship buggy software, again a benefit to the manufacturer. More complex controls for more complex cycles etc? Questionable if this kind of fiddling on e.g. a dishwasher is of any use. Collecting data - because we want to spend Saturday in…

One quibble:

> The buttons on the front are a few cents.

It's knowing where those buttons need to be that is potentially costly. Offloading that to an app lets you cover all bases of unknown UI desire. Of course its still a terrible argument because dishwashers don't need to also be a disco ball or whatever nonsense marketing there is to justify the obvious money grab.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#427

Post by EricE »

jancsika wrote: post #306
imiric wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The dishes get clean and it has no software just buttons. Playing devil's advocate, all modern appliances run software to some extent. A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex. > If the dishes get clean what further enhancements needed to be done? It's not out of the question that the firmware might need to be updated to manage liquids more efficiently, tweak cycle timings, pr…

> A modern dishwasher that does auto-dispensing will be particularly more complex. Show me the evidence that a "complex" auto-dispenser gets dishes cleaner than a mere pre-wash + main wash dispenser. The only argument I could see is that people who use tablets exclusively aren't currently able to use the pre-wash, thus giving them a substandard wash. But then you have to ask-- if the detergent manufacturers have alre…

Tabs dispense the max does of detergent - whether its required or not. That's only good for the detergent manufacturers who get to maximize their profits overselling everyone on detergent. It's horrible for the environment - manufacturing, distribution and more importantly - wasted detergent that gets flushed down the sewer and drives up the complexity of treating wastewater.

Tabs absolutely suck! Is it really that freaking difficult to dump a little powder in a cup? My dad is 87 - the first six years of his life if they wanted water they hauled it from a well, if they wanted hot water they heated it on a stove - after chopping firewood. If they wanted light they lit a kerosene lamp. Fast forward and people are overdosing dishwashers because it's a few seconds faster to throw a tab in. While screeching about global warming. The irony.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#428

Post by stragies »

dpark wrote: post #416
stragies wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The point of such remote-scheduling is in my view, is that e.g. when HA notices, that the machine has not run in 3 days, but is closed, then it can send a notification to my phone, with Buttons for "Go Now", and one for "Tonight, one hour after last movement detection". And I thought at least some dishwashers heated the water themselves, like my washing machine. At least the water-hardness value is nice to know, and…

> when HA notices, that the machine has not run in 3 days, but is closed, then it can send a notification to my phone But why? If I haven’t run it in three days, then I don’t need it to run. The only way this might be useful for me would be if HA could magically realize the dishwasher is full and I forgot to run it, but it’s not going to be able to do that. It can’t tell the difference been “I forgot” and “I don’t wa…

I don't buy devices, if they need to be "on-the-internet" to function. But If I have the choice between a dumb one, and one with the same mechanics, but also a simple SoC with a bunch of sensors and relays connected, that I can talk to with "non-vendor-products" with only a small price difference, THEN I will leave the dumb one on the shelf, and take home the one, that I can actually integrate WELL into my workflows.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#429

Post by pueblito »

PebblesRox wrote: post #331
epicide wrote: post #297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you already have the dishwasher loaded with the dishes before you leave for work, why not just run it then?

We try to avoid running our dishwasher when our toddler is around because he will interfere with the cycle, but sometimes we forget to start it right before heading out the door. Remote start would be handy in a case like that :)

I have a Bosch dishwasher which has the controls inside where kids can’t touch them. Plus it’s insanely quiet

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#430

Post by moonshinefe »

me_me_mu_mu wrote: post #391

Is it weird that the more tech becomes like this the more I feel checked out? I don’t want smart devices, nor do I want to be online 24/7. However it’s hard to escape this reality. My thermostat (in apartment) recently reset due to a power issue and I had to have maintenance over to do its configuration again. They had to come twice because after setting it up they have to figure out how to connect it to Wi-Fi for a…

It's not weird to me or a lot of people I know. I don't want to be online 24/7 (don't bring my phone with me most places, etc.) and I avoid smart devices for the most part in my house.

I think people in general prefer simple and reliable, but sometimes it doesn't seem like it since people who buy smart devices talk about them a lot (not a criticism aimed at those people specifically, people like to talk up their purchases in general).

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