My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi • Hacker News Board

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#121

Post by ajb » Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:32 PM UTC

MSFT_Edging wrote: post #8

What reason could a dishwasher have for a firmware update? Did they not test their dishwasher? did they lock away features behind a subscription? Why would it need a security update if it wasn't internet connected?

In the past all software was offline. You had to get it right before you shipped it. With 95% of work now being cloud-based, it actually seems to be getting hard to keep an engineering/product culture that can deliver right-first-time software, because most engineers, PMs, and managers have never worked in one. I've actually seen products shipped now which wouldn't work at all without an update because the software wasn't finished, and the business decided to ship anyway (to retail) giving engineers a race to get the working version before customers opened the boxes in a few weeks. So yes, it may need an update, just for fixes, because that's how we roll now apparently. It sucks.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#122

Post by JohnJamesRambo » Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:32 PM UTC

buro9 wrote: post #5

Looks like a Miele. That menu can be exited (the image where it says "Software Update", the tiny bit on the right... that's a scroll bar of multiple options including the ability to exit this menu), but it does imply that the dishwasher is already connected to Wi-Fi and that it has determined that there is an update available. There are few times that a dishwasher is interacted with, if not when you go into the menu…

I have never once needed my dishwasher to be operated remotely. Load it and press start.

The dishes get clean and it has no software just buttons. If the dishes get clean what further enhancements needed to be done?

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#123

Post by JoeDaDude » Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:33 PM UTC

hiccuphippo wrote: post #10

Today my TV had an update and now I can't enable the wifi.

I never connected my TV to the wifi, I just want it to be a dumb monitor. The downside is that it takes forever to turn on as, I suspect, its trying to find a wifi to connect to.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#124

Post by JoeAltmaier » Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:33 PM UTC

da_chicken wrote: post #52

christophilus wrote: post #7

I can understand the appeal of most smart devices, but since a dishwasher can’t yet load and unload itself, what is the point of an internet connected dishwasher? You have to have physically loaded it. Why not just push the start button then?

> what is the point of an internet connected dishwasher? The purpose of IOT is pretty clear, although it is also pretty broad. It's a win-win for the manufacturer, but probably a ticking time bomb for the customer. The Good: 1. Reduce production costs by converting electronic control to digital control with COTS chips. 2. Reduce development costs by reducing the cost of correcting bug-free software. The system requir…

None of those 'good' are very good, or good at all. The buttons on the front are a few cents. On a $1000 appliance, that benefits only the manufacturer (if even them).

Being able to ship buggy software, again a benefit to the manufacturer.

More complex controls for more complex cycles etc? Questionable if this kind of fiddling on e.g. a dishwasher is of any use.

Collecting data - because we want to spend Saturday in a spreadsheet, going over our dishwasher telemetry? Oh! Maybe you mean, also only of use to the manufacturer. Not my problem; not a reason to make my device more complicated for me.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#125

Post by OtomotO » Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:33 PM UTC

cure wrote: post #89

OtomotO wrote: post #46

My dishwasher needs no software. The dishwasher I buy will never need software. I am a software engineer and I love technology, but I love simple technology and when something doesn't need software, I don't add software just for the sake of having software.

> The dishwasher I buy will never need software. If you have that option. Not sure if you've shopped for white goods recently, but the options without wifi are relatively few, and mostly lower end models. We needed a new stove, I wanted one without wifi/internet connectivity. Due to the above and supply chain issues that limited availability of a lot of models, I didn't have a choice and ended up with a model with wi…

I am completely honest here: We had a dishwasher since I was a little child (it's very common here)

The first one we had, we had for over 20 years until it broke down.

If I can only get an IoT-thingy, I'll refuse to buy one and either repair the old one or wash by hand.

I am a green-nut, so I try to minimize my eco-footprint, but enough is enough and I draw a line when my dishwasher needs to phone home.

What software update could it possible need? A better algorithm for dosage?

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#126

Post by technothrasher » Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:34 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #100

reustle wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m pretty sure the pro move is to never connect your dishwasher to the internet in the first place.

In this case I'd say the right move is to just not buy the connected device at all. It should be cheaper and not lack any features you want anyway. In contrast to the case of a TV, you may want to buy the smart thing and not connect it. Because since all decent TVs now are smart TVs, chasing a much worse and/or much more expensive TV to avoid smart features in 2022 is usually going to be a really expensive way of buy…

> In this case I'd say the right move is to just not buy the connected device at all. It should be cheaper and not lack any features you want anyway.

I just renovated my whole kitchen, and all the appliances that had the features I wanted also had wifi connectivity. I basically had no choice but to buy them with it, other than giving up other features. I haven't, however, allowed any of them to connect to my wifi.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#127

Post by Cthulhu_ » Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:34 PM UTC

tyingq wrote: post #35

christophilus wrote: post #7

I can understand the appeal of most smart devices, but since a dishwasher can’t yet load and unload itself, what is the point of an internet connected dishwasher? You have to have physically loaded it. Why not just push the start button then?

Most of them are sort of silly, but it does have some options that make use of the "smartness". The manual is here: https://www.mieleusa.com/pmedia/ZGA/TX2070/10546880-000-01_1... Most of the smart stuff is in "settings" starting on page 64. Stuff like configuring it to run only during a low electric rate period (nights). Notifying you when filters need changing. Keeping track of detergent reservoir levels.

> configuring it to run only during a low electric rate period (nights)

My dishwasher has a start delay function, basically the same... although if it's 'smart' I guess you could align it with things like a smart grid, highly variable rates, solar panels and battery. But that's something for the 1%.

Filters is a double-edged sword, because since it's a consumable, it's in the manufacturer's interest to give false positives for the need to replace filters, like printer ink.

Detergent reservoir levels, I don't know if that's a thing, mine has a reservoir for salt, but I have to put a detergent tablet in myself for every cycle. Would be convenient if it was built in, I guess.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#128

Post by raverbashing » Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:34 PM UTC

lights0123 wrote: post #12

christophilus wrote: post #7

I can understand the appeal of most smart devices, but since a dishwasher can’t yet load and unload itself, what is the point of an internet connected dishwasher? You have to have physically loaded it. Why not just push the start button then?

Notifications is the big reason: because cycle times are usually just estimates, you can't just set a timer for when it'll be done.

"just estimates" no, I don't buy this.

Unless you're actually looking for sub-minute precision on its timing, the cycle time is pretty fixed. Dishwashers don't care about load or dirtyness, they care about the program you select.

Too much user lazyness and machine automatism make things go sideways.

Also, machines that let you open the door while it's running might result in more confusion than anything else (is the cycle just started or it is actually ending?).

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#129

Post by fullstop » Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:34 PM UTC

buro9 wrote: post #5

Looks like a Miele. That menu can be exited (the image where it says "Software Update", the tiny bit on the right... that's a scroll bar of multiple options including the ability to exit this menu), but it does imply that the dishwasher is already connected to Wi-Fi and that it has determined that there is an update available. There are few times that a dishwasher is interacted with, if not when you go into the menu…

My dishwasher is from 1992. It's from the era of packet radio and pre-dates WiFi. I can't imagine using some smart phone app to manage a dishwasher.

Re: My dishwasher won’t start until I let it update its firmware over the WiFi

#130

Post by aenis » Mon, Jan 31, 2022, 2:34 PM UTC

buro9 wrote: post #77

michaelt wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Wi-Fi is useful [...] Performs updates, etc. Ah yes, get wifi so your dishwasher can get security updates, which you need because your dishwasher is on wifi.

Updates improve wash efficiency, etc. Not just security updates. Maybe a new cleaning powder comes with a new algo. Maybe there's a better dosing for certain levels of water hardness. But the gist is that it updates the whole module. I'm fine with this, Miele are like Bosch in that they look after the hardware they sell for decades rather than considering it deprecated the day it leaves a shop floor.

I've used Miele appliances for 3 decades now. Somehow, until recently, they managed to provide excellent quality and durability without spying on their users and releasing half baked firmwares in need of updates.