Earlier quoted context omitted.
I've never heard a convincing argument about why the COVID restrictions weren't literal violations of human rights. Often I got a variant of "I'm scared we're just going to do it". Most (all?) of the arguments for it turned out to be wrong - eg, vaccination has not slowed the spread, even marginally, according to the experience in Australia where COVID tore through a highly vaccinated population. In my state (~95% ad…
I’m Australian. Vaccination and restrictions were why we never saw refrigerated containers of dead people on street corners, like NYC did in the first wave. Many people would have died or needed to be hospitalized.
Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates
671–680 of 1001 posts
Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates
#672The media's binary separation of populations into vax and unvax is a false dichotomy. More causal factors would be represented by: 1. Covid-recovered 2. Vaccinated 3. Partly-vaccinated ( CDC reporting bundles #3 and #4. UK reports all 4 categories separately. #1 was already a high percentage in 2021 and is now higher due to Omicron. Edit: CDC estimated pre-Omicron #1 as 146 million people (as of Oct 2021), https://ww…
I feel that you need to include the people for masks and those against it. Unlike vaccines, masks do not lose efficacy over time or due to new variants. Both anti-vax and pro-vaccine supporters can fall into the anti-mask category. I don’t understand why people in the West are so anti-mask. It's been two years since I've gotten sick with anything. 1. Covid-recovered and Vaccinated + pro-mask 2. Covid-recovered and Pa…
"anti-mask" has an implicit spin where it sounds like you're claiming a person is against the idea of anyone wearing a mask, but then often apply the label to a person who is perfectly fine with masks so long as the person wearing the mask is doing so of their own volition.
so i say split that category, and then the major categories might be more like "pro-universal-masking", "anti-universal-masking" (i.e. "individual choice"), and "anti-mask-wearing-in-public" (not only doesn't want to wear a mask, but doesn't want the people around them to be wearing a mask).
Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates
#673Earlier quoted context omitted.
simple numbers show that unvaccinated get covid at higher rates and the number of hospitalizations is higher which puts strain on the hospitals. If something happens to me I dont want an unvaccinated taking a spot I need.
What about smokers? What about the obese? What about people who took risks and acquired HIV?
Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates
#674Earlier quoted context omitted.
Apologies in advance for getting on my soapbox, but this has been on my mind for a while. The way in which the media has gotten everyone to say "the unvaccinated" is a 'disease' against basic science (not even getting into the divisive nature of this). I would go as far as saying if you read any paper, study, or other that refers to the "unvaccinated" as a single cohort, you are reading vaccine propaganda, not scienc…
> why are they so adamant to vaccinate those with prior infection Because the data shows they don't matter. This is the same thing as deaths due to covid vs. deaths while positive to covid. Sure some people might have been miscounted as covid deaths but actually died due to cancer/car accident/whatever. Despite this the excess deaths over the past two years is much higher than the number of covid deaths; thus showing…
No. This is wrong. As the parent noted, the CDC's own data shows that prior infection provides robust protection against severe disease. Both without vaccination:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm#F1_down
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e1.htm
As well as a substantial additional benefit after vaccination:
https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7101a4.htm
> Previous COVID-19 illness was associated with reduced odds of severe outcomes (aOR = 0.27; 95% CI = 0.09–0.84).
Moreover, the CDC estimates that over 150M people in the US (out of a country of 330M) have had Covid:
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/cases-updates/burd...
That's 45% of the US population (before Omicron). There's no rational way to characterize this as insignificant.
Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates
#675Earlier quoted context omitted.
> why are they so adamant to vaccinate those with prior infection Because the data shows they don't matter. This is the same thing as deaths due to covid vs. deaths while positive to covid. Sure some people might have been miscounted as covid deaths but actually died due to cancer/car accident/whatever. Despite this the excess deaths over the past two years is much higher than the number of covid deaths; thus showing…
> Because the data shows they don't matter. Source? Because the CDC says otherwise. > In the first full week of October, vaccinated New Yorkers with a prior Covid-19 case were 19.8 times less likely to catch the virus than their unvaccinated and uninfected peers, whereas people who were unvaccinated but previously infected were 14.7 times less likely, and vaccinated but uninfected New Yorkers were just 4.5 times less…
Is that because people who have caught it are more likely to take precautions against catching it again?
Those who were vaccinated but previously uninfected may have had a “it can’t happen to me and if it does, I’m vaccinated” attitude.
I’d expect unvaccinated people to be in the bucket with covid deniers and anti-maskers, which would have the highest base rate of COVID.
Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates
#676Something from the NYT mailing list yesterday: > The Covid vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing serious illness. If you’re vaccinated, your chances of getting severely sick are extremely low. Even among people 65 and older, the combination of the vaccines’ effectiveness and the Omicron variant’s relative mildness means that Covid now appears to present less danger than a normal flu. > For the unvaccinated,…
Apologies in advance for getting on my soapbox, but this has been on my mind for a while. The way in which the media has gotten everyone to say "the unvaccinated" is a 'disease' against basic science (not even getting into the divisive nature of this). I would go as far as saying if you read any paper, study, or other that refers to the "unvaccinated" as a single cohort, you are reading vaccine propaganda, not scienc…
I don’t understand why it’s so controversial. The upside is huge and there is literally no downside.
Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates
#677Earlier quoted context omitted.
> why are they so adamant to vaccinate those with prior infection Because the data shows they don't matter. This is the same thing as deaths due to covid vs. deaths while positive to covid. Sure some people might have been miscounted as covid deaths but actually died due to cancer/car accident/whatever. Despite this the excess deaths over the past two years is much higher than the number of covid deaths; thus showing…
> Because the data shows they don't matter. Source? Because the CDC says otherwise. > In the first full week of October, vaccinated New Yorkers with a prior Covid-19 case were 19.8 times less likely to catch the virus than their unvaccinated and uninfected peers, whereas people who were unvaccinated but previously infected were 14.7 times less likely, and vaccinated but uninfected New Yorkers were just 4.5 times less…
Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates
#678Pfizer sells a coronavirus treatment.[1] So more cases are good for their bottom line. "Cures are nice, but the money is in chronic conditions." [1] https://www.cnbc.com/2021/12/22/fda-authorizes-pfizers-covid...
Language Warning.
Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates
#679Something from the NYT mailing list yesterday: > The Covid vaccines are remarkably effective at preventing serious illness. If you’re vaccinated, your chances of getting severely sick are extremely low. Even among people 65 and older, the combination of the vaccines’ effectiveness and the Omicron variant’s relative mildness means that Covid now appears to present less danger than a normal flu. > For the unvaccinated,…
Apologies in advance for getting on my soapbox, but this has been on my mind for a while. The way in which the media has gotten everyone to say "the unvaccinated" is a 'disease' against basic science (not even getting into the divisive nature of this). I would go as far as saying if you read any paper, study, or other that refers to the "unvaccinated" as a single cohort, you are reading vaccine propaganda, not scienc…
I think what you're trying to say is that you believe there is an adequate enough case for people who had prior infection to avoid what they believe is an unnecessary medical procedure which may have some risk. And, scientifically, you believe it's absolutely certain that in this specific situation, prior infection immunity provides very good protection, enough to override any benefits we might see that happen at very high vaccination rates.
Hope that's a good summary....
Are you a scientist?
You made a number of statements about what is good and bad science, but some of the reasoning you make doesn't completely add up. In science nobody has epistemic certainty, but scientists and public health people act as if they do. In reality public health decisions are made using imperfect information and balance utilitarian and emotional concerns, as well as prior knowledge of patient compliance. Sometimes it may be necessary to not change a message, even if it's somewhat wrong, too quickly.
The calculus is very simple at this point. I believe CDC and others are saying that the additional risk from taking the vaccine is very very small, and the marginal benefit of having even people with prior infection get vaccinated presents a greater (overall) health outcome (presumably in the form of people who had infection immunity but still were re-infected, and then infected others).
Beyond that I don't think anybody has enough scientific data that is certain enough to say that you're right in your statements, and I think it's pretty poor taste to just keep attacking people who disagree with you as doing "bad science". Science is a subtle art, and anyway, public health is an entirely different field that has to concern itself with effective communication and people-emotions and ethics, so sometimes what CDC announcements may not be identical to what the state of the art of science is saying.
I think making a simpler and weaker point would work better. I'd criticize the media for unnecessarily creating additional fear, uncertainty, and doubt, around COVID (there was a lot of early reporting about how omicron was going to destroy the world, that was entirely baseless speculation). And too many people, both media and generally, are quick to criticize people who don't "follow the CDC to the letter", especially around vaccines. I think that kind of cropped up politically in the US after the unnecessary autism/vaccine scare and ended up representing a dividing line.
BTW, I'm an ex-scientist, worked in medical biology for decades, and I don't think many vaccines (flu, covid) are nearly as effective as the medical establishment suggests (look at the numbers of people who died of flu even in years with very high vaccination rates). And people do have significant side effects from getting vaccinated, but very rarely are the side effects more dangerous than the value of being vaccinated (in cases of flu and covid), which is why I support them. Finally, I think that herd immunity doesn't actually work in diseases like flu or covid. So I have some sympathy to your message but ultimately, just get vaccinated and boosted unless you can truly articulate some huge risk to your personal biology.
Re: Pfizer board member suggests end to mask, vaccine mandates
#680Earlier quoted context omitted.
> why are they so adamant to vaccinate those with prior infection Because the data shows they don't matter. This is the same thing as deaths due to covid vs. deaths while positive to covid. Sure some people might have been miscounted as covid deaths but actually died due to cancer/car accident/whatever. Despite this the excess deaths over the past two years is much higher than the number of covid deaths; thus showing…
Data has been showing 80/20 vaxed/non vaxed hospitalizations for this new variant. How does that change your worldview?