Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Meditation and the Unconscious

thereader.mitpress.mit.edu

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

91–100 of 122 posts

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#91

Post by srcreigh »

hibernator149 wrote: post #88
bshepard wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If, moreover, naturalism is correct (however implausible that is), and if consciousness is then an essentially material phenomenon, then there is no reason to believe that our minds, having evolved purely through natural selection, could possibly be capable of knowing what is or is not true about reality as a whole. Our brains may necessarily have equipped us to recognize certain sorts of physical objects around us…

The only way to perceive actual reality and truth is to be magically endowed with this ability? The author of this quote can't imagine how this ability might result from evolution? Personal incredulity does not count as proof. Naturalism is our only chance for understanding this world, everything else is just magical thinking without proof.

Do you have the magical ability to see, hear, and otherwise perceive reality? It's one thing to have sensory perceptions, it's another to consider them all somehow connected, and it's entirely another to do so while ruling out any other forms of perception which may not be known to you yet.

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#92

Post by dmje »

WJW wrote: post #84
rakejake wrote: post #75

We are made of molecules and our thoughts are simply chemical reactions. The biological basis for the mind and thoughts are not well understood today. Meditation is a time-tested way to influence our body's chemistry in ways that discourage agitation, reduce anxiety and increase clarity. Just don't take it too far and hope to discover the meaning of life. Meditating for long hours is serious business and should be co…

> Just don't take it too far and hope to discover the meaning of life. In particular, reducing agitation and anxiety is great, but that meditation can make you more tranquil does not mean it can make you infinitely tranquil no matter how hard you try. Training the high jump will allow you to make higher jumps, but even a lot of high jump training will not teach you to fly.

It's a common misunderstanding that meditation leads to tranquility, that you somehow become a calm person. In the moment it does, but the bigger picture is that it gives you tools to deal with life with more equanimity and balance. The offshoot might be a sense of calm but it's an effect rather than a cause.

The "infinitely tranquil" thing needs some unpacking too, mainly because it's not exactly easy to define what that means... Are there people whose whole life has been hugely and meaningfully improved through the practice of meditation? Yes, absolutely.

This in my opinion is enough. We don't always need to fly.

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#93

Post by srcreigh »

throw1234651234 wrote: post #28
cypherpunks01 wrote: post #20

“One does not become enlightened by imagining figures of light, but by making the darkness conscious. The latter procedure, however, is disagreeable and therefore not popular.” -C.G. Jung

Context? I have no idea what this quote is trying to say.

With slightly more detail.

"Stand at the brink of the abyss of despair, and when you see that you cannot bear it anymore, draw back a little and have a cup of tea" ~Elder Sophrony of Essex

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#94

Post by bshepard »

hibernator149 wrote: post #88
bshepard wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If, moreover, naturalism is correct (however implausible that is), and if consciousness is then an essentially material phenomenon, then there is no reason to believe that our minds, having evolved purely through natural selection, could possibly be capable of knowing what is or is not true about reality as a whole. Our brains may necessarily have equipped us to recognize certain sorts of physical objects around us…

The only way to perceive actual reality and truth is to be magically endowed with this ability? The author of this quote can't imagine how this ability might result from evolution? Personal incredulity does not count as proof. Naturalism is our only chance for understanding this world, everything else is just magical thinking without proof.

Naturalism is a metaphysical position; a second order claim about what kind of phenomena count as real. It is different than a methodological committment to only considering a certain set of causal relations -- this methodological committment makes research possible, not the metaphysical committment of naturalism, which is extremely untenable, as it can't account for the most basic aspects of our experience.

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#95

Post by janto »

srcreigh wrote: post #91
hibernator149 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way to perceive actual reality and truth is to be magically endowed with this ability? The author of this quote can't imagine how this ability might result from evolution? Personal incredulity does not count as proof. Naturalism is our only chance for understanding this world, everything else is just magical thinking without proof.

Do you have the magical ability to see, hear, and otherwise perceive reality ? It's one thing to have sensory perceptions, it's another to consider them all somehow connected, and it's entirely another to do so while ruling out any other forms of perception which may not be known to you yet.

If I make a mistake in my perception of reality there is a chance I might die. I have many emotional reactions that prevent and attempt to correct for this misalignment whenever it occurs (surprise, disgust, doubt, anger). Are these the magical abilities that would get me closer to perceiving reality?

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#96

Post by bencollier49 »

bshepard wrote: post #94
hibernator149 wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only way to perceive actual reality and truth is to be magically endowed with this ability? The author of this quote can't imagine how this ability might result from evolution? Personal incredulity does not count as proof. Naturalism is our only chance for understanding this world, everything else is just magical thinking without proof.

Naturalism is a metaphysical position; a second order claim about what kind of phenomena count as real. It is different than a methodological committment to only considering a certain set of causal relations -- this methodological committment makes research possible, not the metaphysical committment of naturalism, which is extremely untenable, as it can't account for the most basic aspects of our experience.

Absolutely. We are still suffering as a society from the baggage of the 20th century, when man rather foolishly imagined that science would explain everything. This was pretty much ruled out philosophically from the get-go, but we still have this naive scientism which crops up everywhere and claims to have explained the human condition and origin, when it has done nothing of the sort.

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#97

Post by goldfeld »

hibernator149 wrote: post #88
bshepard wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If, moreover, naturalism is correct (however implausible that is), and if consciousness is then an essentially material phenomenon, then there is no reason to believe that our minds, having evolved purely through natural selection, could possibly be capable of knowing what is or is not true about reality as a whole. Our brains may necessarily have equipped us to recognize certain sorts of physical objects around us…

The only way to perceive actual reality and truth is to be magically endowed with this ability? The author of this quote can't imagine how this ability might result from evolution? Personal incredulity does not count as proof. Naturalism is our only chance for understanding this world, everything else is just magical thinking without proof.

You may as well assert, since you cannot be sure of another's subjective yet perhaps eminently palpable experiences, that naturalism is the only chance for the rational, thinking masses to conceive of the world and its reasons. And that's very well. But the accused magical thinking could be first-hand and self-proving, but not transmissible much less generalizable, that science's naturalism may only get you so far down the tube of reality.

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#98

Post by touisteur »

dmje wrote: post #92
WJW wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Just don't take it too far and hope to discover the meaning of life. In particular, reducing agitation and anxiety is great, but that meditation can make you more tranquil does not mean it can make you infinitely tranquil no matter how hard you try. Training the high jump will allow you to make higher jumps, but even a lot of high jump training will not teach you to fly.

It's a common misunderstanding that meditation leads to tranquility, that you somehow become a calm person. In the moment it does, but the bigger picture is that it gives you tools to deal with life with more equanimity and balance. The offshoot might be a sense of calm but it's an effect rather than a cause. The "infinitely tranquil" thing needs some unpacking too, mainly because it's not exactly easy to define what…

For some trauma-laden people, meditation can be quite a (bad) trip. I used to have horrible trauma flashbacks during meditation sessions. I would be getting into a calmer state, able to let go of anxiety, stress, daily minute thoughts, and after some quiet time, I'd be in a terrible state, with horrible memories surfacing. I definitely recommend not doing it alone if your childhood was painful.

Same for yoga and long poses. One of the things I really hated with covid is the 'let's do zoom yoga' WTF ? Can't tell how many times in yoga sessions I needed 'help' because I was no more there but in a (very) bad place.

I'm not sure it happens to other people. Therapy helps, but I wish I'd been warned before starting on the meditation journey.

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#99

Post by KptMarchewa »

swayvil wrote: post #64
throw1234651234 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a valid concern. Most likely meditation doesn't do anything at all. If you trust "Western Research", e.g. reading "Altered Traits", it either did nothing, or changes were noticeable after years. Concrete example - the author (or one of) practice meditation for 2 years to reduce his blood pressure and then ended up just taking some pills for it. So it does nothing (likely), it's good for you, or it's bad for y…

Yes. There are proven benefits of meditation. I speak from personal experience. That is my proof. I used to do a lot of "one pointed" meditation. Then I did one pointed + vipassana. Now I do just vipassana.

>There are proven benefits

>I speak from personal experience

lol

Re: Meditation and the Unconscious

#100

Post by davidhs »

rakejake wrote: post #75

We are made of molecules and our thoughts are simply chemical reactions. The biological basis for the mind and thoughts are not well understood today. Meditation is a time-tested way to influence our body's chemistry in ways that discourage agitation, reduce anxiety and increase clarity. Just don't take it too far and hope to discover the meaning of life. Meditating for long hours is serious business and should be co…

You are a simulated person running inside a simulated universe that is being simulated on a physical brain inside a physical human inside a physical universe.

With meditation you can learn for example how to turn off your simulated self. With certain psychoactive substances you alter the dynamics of your physical brain which causes it to simulate a somewhat different universe.

Post reply on HN