Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now • Hacker News Board

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#371

Post by pydry » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 6:58 PM UTC

sudosysgen wrote: post #341

pydry wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"A perfectly free market" is essentially a deliberately vague pseudoreligious concept. No true free market would [ insert as appropriate ].

It's not really that vague. The less resource allocation is affected by non-market forces, the freer the market. Of course, a perfectly free market is not actually possible. My point is moreso that there are extremely good reasons to limit the autonomy of markets.

What constitutes nonmarket forces is mostly a matter of opinion.

Unions? Monopoly power? Government enforcing contracts? Government competing in the market? Natural disasters? Normal weather? Taxation? No taxation? Strong property rights? No property rights?

A "perfectly free market" is a meaningless phrase dressed up to sound like "frictionless in a vacuum". It exists for the purposes of cynical lobbying.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#372

Post by ashtonkem » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 7:03 PM UTC

sumtechguy wrote: post #126

refurb wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope. When I worked tips were way preferable. A busy night could get me $50/hr just in tips. Maybe $500 in a night if I was lucky. You could boost me to 2x minimum wage and I’d still make less. There is a reason why the tipping system still exists.

That is highly dependent on the type of restaurant you work at. Someone I know would make 100-250 a night a one place. Moves to another one, she was maybe getting maybe 20 total a night. Moves to another one 80-150...

I worked at a popular pizza chain for high school and got maybe $10 in tips my entire time there. My pregnant coworker meanwhile averaged an extra $50 or more a night. Given that I was paid minimum wage at the time ($4.25 IIRC), that extra $50 in tips was a significant boost to her income.

Now on one hand I think it's fair that a pregnant woman needs more money than a high school kid who's saving up for extra toys (a DSLR in my case), so I'm not complaining about my pay. But then again literally no customer actually knew that; for all they knew I was supporting my poor family with extra income. The arbitrariness is troubling. If tips are a significant chunk of your pay, then you're dependent on either customers feeling bad for you, or generally liking you in order to make a good wage. And heaven help you if you're in a demographic group that's disliked for whatever reason.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#373

Post by ethbr0 » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 7:04 PM UTC

oramit wrote: post #313

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it the only aspect of the article that most on this site can relate with? I take it most have not worked service industry or it was a very long time ago. I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/14/us/apt-cape-cod-restauran... > The verbal abuse from rude customers got so bad, the owners of one farm-to-table restaurant on Cape Cod said, that som…

I've noticed growing incivility as well and it's a slow moving culture change that I think we're all going to really regret. I don't think it's caused by just one thing and it has been brewing for a while but Covid just pushed it over the edge like so many other trends. Some ideas on the causes: - The fish rots from the head. Trump was elected in 2016 and he's an asshole. His whole schtick is to mock his opponents an…

> All real decision making has been taken away from the people who actually interact with the public. Executives and managers who have the power to change things (like increase wages to bring more employees in) are insulated from the public.

Had to scroll down a bit, because I knew this comment had to exist, but wholeheartedly agreed.

Managers in customer-facing jobs don't (and can't!) manage customers anymore. They manage employees.

Used to be, the manager was the one who would come out and say "Sir or madam, I have to ask that you hold your tone and speak more respectfully to our employees." And if the customer persisted, ban them from the business.

That authority has been stripped from them, because it's complicated, requires capable and trained managers, and gets in the way of copying and pasting a franchise.

Instead, corporate policy has been to raise the brand above its employees. If that burns out folks working there, they can be replaced.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#374

Post by uoaei » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 7:04 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #359

uoaei wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people forgot what it's like to be punched in the mouth

Fighting words. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_words Maybe the Supreme Court has been going the wrong way on its adjustment to them, in trying to clarify whether or not they were protected under the First Amendment. Instead, they could have looked at liability shielding for limited assault in reaction to such language. If there's a possibility that a server punches me because I berate him or her, I'm probab…

The obsession with "intention" as opposed to "outcome" in legal judgments continues to mystify and mortify me.

But I still don't see an easy way to fit the scenario of "I mouthed off to a server and they punched me in the mouth" into a legal framework that supports repeatable judgments in a way that supports civility writ large.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#375

Post by ashtonkem » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 7:06 PM UTC

sjostrom7 wrote: post #208

ashtonkem wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally it took me a second to get past "Death threats drove him from town and to Austin". That is quite the fact to cover in a single sentence.

There's a link further down but tldr, he ran a department that struggled to disperse unemployment benefits to the people of New Mexico during 2021. Hard to say if anyone else would have done better in his place, but his address and family info were getting shared online and a car got blown up at his place of work.

I understand the anger (but not to the point of terrorism or threats), but it's also pretty obvious to me that blaming one guy for the failures is kind of missing the point. The entire unemployment system has been deliberately undermined for ideological reasons, with the goal being making it as hard as possible to get and keep benefits. It's not shocking that one person could fix a decade or two worth of systemic rot when suddenly the system is strained to the max.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#376

Post by dlp211 » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 7:09 PM UTC

ethbr0 wrote: post #369

lazide wrote: post #360

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would hope not, but how realistic of a concern it is depends on your neighbors, the local CPS folks, and how well you’d come across to them at the time. It adds a lot of fear, uncertainty, and doubt. That near as I can tell no one lets a kid out alone is indicating how big a problem it really is. The most I’ve seen here is when they’re paired up and 12+, and here is one of the safest places in the county in a very…

This absolutely depends on local CPS, and they have wide authority within their lane. As they should, considering their mission and the interactions and choices they have to make in bad cases. But it does mean that a lot is subject to opinion. And once you're on the radar, how do you get off? How do you prove you're a good, safe, responsible parent when the judging worker believes otherwise and has some authority to…

By being a good, safe, responsible parent. You all are acting like CPS pulls kids away from stable homes on the daily. That isn't happening. This is a consequence of anecdote over data, where there is one or two widely bad outcomes and everyone reacts to them, when in reality, this almost never happens.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#377

Post by tdeck » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 7:09 PM UTC

phlipski wrote: post #2

Excellent article. Shame so many wealthy people are cheap on tips. Always round up on the tip - the people relying on them need that extra $1-5 dollars more than you do. And if you can't afford those extra few dollars than what are you doing going out in the first place?

This is the first I've heard of tipping at a movie theater. I didn't even know it was possible, let alone expected.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#378

Post by ethbr0 » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 7:10 PM UTC

uoaei wrote: post #374

ethbr0 wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fighting words. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_words Maybe the Supreme Court has been going the wrong way on its adjustment to them, in trying to clarify whether or not they were protected under the First Amendment. Instead, they could have looked at liability shielding for limited assault in reaction to such language. If there's a possibility that a server punches me because I berate him or her, I'm probab…

The obsession with "intention" as opposed to "outcome" in legal judgments continues to mystify and mortify me. But I still don't see an easy way to fit the scenario of "I mouthed off to a server and they punched me in the mouth" into a legal framework that supports repeatable judgments in a way that supports civility writ large.

The same way we do auto accidents? Collect what physical evidence is possible, interview witnesses, and attempt to assign fault.

And I'm not advocating for a return to duels at dawn with pistols!

But simple or criminal battery (e.g. I punch someone, with my fists, and then de-escalate) that could not have been expected to result in permanent injury? I can think of worse things for culture.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#379

Post by fallingfrog » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 7:12 PM UTC

spaetzleesser wrote: post #294

fallingfrog wrote: post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I once got screamed at by a red-faced old man driving a mercedes because he had to wait 4 and a half minutes for a McChicken sandwich. Old rich people are just the most sociopathic people.

Unfortunately current society rewards sociopathic behavior and selects them for leadership positions.

What really rubs salt in the wound is when those exact same people refer to the poor kids who are just barely scraping by as "entitled". I always think, do you hear yourself?

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#380

Post by dlp211 » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 7:12 PM UTC

lazide wrote: post #360

dlp211 wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this does happen, this is not normal and CPS isn't going to do anything to a healthy family that let's their kids go out and play.

I would hope not, but how realistic of a concern it is depends on your neighbors, the local CPS folks, and how well you’d come across to them at the time. It adds a lot of fear, uncertainty, and doubt. That near as I can tell no one lets a kid out alone is indicating how big a problem it really is. The most I’ve seen here is when they’re paired up and 12+, and here is one of the safest places in the county in a very…

I, and nearly everyone in my neighborhood let our kids out. I see kids walking up and down my street, by themselves and with their friends every day. Let your kids go out, they and you will be fine.