Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now • Hacker News Board

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#341

Post by sudosysgen » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 6:18 PM UTC

pydry wrote: post #319

sudosysgen wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Markets in general are quite good at routing resources and innovation. A perfectly free market, or at least free enough that you're arguing we should remove regulators and social safety nets, is worse at all of those things, and only really great at controlling people, which as the point of those you were replying to. Also, markets can't allow innovations from the ground up by themselves, the require a government to…

"A perfectly free market" is essentially a deliberately vague pseudoreligious concept. No true free market would [ insert as appropriate ].

It's not really that vague. The less resource allocation is affected by non-market forces, the freer the market. Of course, a perfectly free market is not actually possible. My point is moreso that there are extremely good reasons to limit the autonomy of markets.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#342

Post by milesvp » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 6:21 PM UTC

beerandt wrote: post #288

dollarsuck wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An outcome of little to no consequences for actions. Come visit my local grocery store. Few replace carts at the store or in the stalls, there will be 2-6 vehicle using the clearly-marked "Fire Lane - No Parking" lane as their personal parking spots plainly blocking the doors of the foyer (and this is not drop-off, not pick-up, not having their spouse load up in a rain storm). Have "About 12 Items or Fewer" - well ha…

While I agree that "the customer is always right" attitude has actuality just become a policy of non-confrontation... >I want the meat of sandwich A, the bread off sandwich B, the condiments from an item on the Sunday Brunch menu If they think bread +meat +condiment is a highly demanding, needy sandwich order, then perhaps waiting tables isn't for them. It at least suggests why they might find their tip-based compens…

You may not know this, but custom orders slow down service sometimes by an order of magnitude.

I worked at a takeout teriyaki joint in college, and it was as fast a food as you could find. There were 5 menu items, and I could really get in a rhythm dishing rice and chicken and coleslaw. But as soon as anyone asked for something non-standard, then suddenly muscle memory was gone, and I actually had to think about what I was doing. Just asking for no salad could halve my serving speed, especially if they asked for at the wrong time of doing the order.

I can only imagine how much worse this is in a setting with multiple people and multiple handoffs.

On top of that, if the restaurant isn't being run like a short order joint, they're going to have other issues with mixing and matching menu items, like now they may have 2 less dishes they can serve, because, believe it or not, ordering for a restaurant can be a very precise thing, and they'll likely order quantities proportional to the menu ingredients. I'm not saying don't do this, but I am saying be polite when you request these kinds of things, and be willing to accept "we can't do that" as an answer.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#343

Post by lostlogin » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 6:22 PM UTC

inetknght wrote: post #322

mcv wrote: post #264

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The tipping situation is absolutely stupid, but hardly the only problem. And shitty entitled customers contribute to both issues here: they treat employees poorly, and they tip poorly. Businesses should probably just kick those customers out. If you can't behave like a decent person, the business shouldn't have to accept you as a customer. Ultimately, of course, the market will correct itself. If these service jobs a…

> Ultimately, of course, the market will correct itself. We're at where we are because of market forces. I doubt the market will "correct itself" when the market doesn't see anything wrong.

The way this gets ‘fixed’ will be hilarious to see. Maybe low cost housing provided by a mega-corp but paid by the taxpayer.

Higher wages will not be the solution I’m sure.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#344

Post by fundad » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 6:22 PM UTC

d0gsg0w00f wrote: post #146

I used to work crappy jobs too and they sucked really bad so I dedicated my life to getting the next slightly less crappy job. More qualified people move out and new people move in and the pipeline stays full. If the service you are selling has any value then valuable people will work there. The problem is that nobody in their right mind would see a movie in a theater these days. Your only customers are people who ar…

Who could have guessed that moviegoers during a pandemic are bad tippers?

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#345

Post by kerneloftruth » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 6:28 PM UTC

To be honest, the former New Mexico Cabinet Secretary and current bartender seems to be quite a complainer: he left his job and NM out of a rather general fear[1], now inexplicably working as a bartender[2]; he then proceeds to basically complain about how shitty jobs are indeed shitty, and notably not making a cogent point regarding economic and societal root causes of labor shortage. He vaguely attributes them as due to older people retiring early (many indeed are), but in most examples of people quitting (i.e. the entire kitchen staff) don't fit his thesis. I'd expect more depth from someone whose cabinet post was focused on labor.

He's similarly dismissive with statements like "But since the kids out here don’t have to work because for the most part their parents are rich, getting them hired and wanting to stay is really hard." A little bitter, perhaps?

It seems to all be about his worldview and personal identity being based on being a victim; he and everyone he's working with are all fellow victims. And nowadays, victim-hood carries enormous cache -- they're today's heroes.

[1] "While the letter wasn’t threatening, “it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that it was only a matter of time before my home address and other personal information was shared on social media..."

[2] nothing at all wrong with being one, but for a 'professional class' person to need a desperation job in the current market is surprising...and maybe indicative.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#346

Post by ethbr0 » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 6:30 PM UTC

ianai wrote: post #325

MattGaiser wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people. Is it growing, or is it just unpleasant/impolite to state that a large segment of the population consists of jerks so we keep forgetting?

I think it's social media. I quit social media years ago. I've also noticed people becoming just increasingly hostile for "no apparent to me reason".

It's funny. We used to joke about how IRC turned everyone into an asshole, in the 1990s.

And then we recreated that same factory (Facebook, Twitter) and signed the world's entire population up.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#347

Post by ZeroGravitas » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 6:31 PM UTC

mcv wrote: post #264

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it the only aspect of the article that most on this site can relate with? I take it most have not worked service industry or it was a very long time ago. I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/14/us/apt-cape-cod-restauran... > The verbal abuse from rude customers got so bad, the owners of one farm-to-table restaurant on Cape Cod said, that som…

The tipping situation is absolutely stupid, but hardly the only problem. And shitty entitled customers contribute to both issues here: they treat employees poorly, and they tip poorly. Businesses should probably just kick those customers out. If you can't behave like a decent person, the business shouldn't have to accept you as a customer. Ultimately, of course, the market will correct itself. If these service jobs a…

> Ultimately, of course, the market will correct itself.

Or it'll be a "market for lemons" situation and someone will need to rewrite the rules of the market in order for the best thing to happen and/or it just won't get better.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#348

Post by mcv » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 6:33 PM UTC

l8rpeace wrote: post #100

Former politician who focused on labor joins the workforce and learns the real truth THEN chastises customers for not tipping in the conclusion of his article? Yes, he talks about the tough conditions of the job and customer behavior and other things, but nothing about how MAYBE legislation should change for wages (hourly service workers relying on tips in the US actually make well below the hourly minimum wage). Sor…

He addresses the low wages right at the start. He also addresses shitty customer behaviour and shitty employer demands. And yes, he also touches on tipping. I think the article is pretty well-rounded.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#349

Post by rnk » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 6:34 PM UTC

lostlogin wrote: post #343

inetknght wrote: post #322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Ultimately, of course, the market will correct itself. We're at where we are because of market forces. I doubt the market will "correct itself" when the market doesn't see anything wrong.

The way this gets ‘fixed’ will be hilarious to see. Maybe low cost housing provided by a mega-corp but paid by the taxpayer. Higher wages will not be the solution I’m sure.

We already have a portion of that with minimum wage being paid to 100s of thousands of Walmart workers whose workers also qualify for various forms of welfare, and walmart also campaigns against raising minimum wage.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#350

Post by thatjoeoverthr » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 6:35 PM UTC

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #122

nepeckman wrote: post #87

It's a shame that the comments here are laser focused on the tipping parts of the article, and not the bigger picture items. The author outlines the struggles of getting service jobs filled in high CoL areas, the vicious cycle of turnover in these jobs, and all the commenters here want to discuss is the 2 paragraphs on tipping.

Is it the only aspect of the article that most on this site can relate with? I take it most have not worked service industry or it was a very long time ago. I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/14/us/apt-cape-cod-restauran... > The verbal abuse from rude customers got so bad, the owners of one farm-to-table restaurant on Cape Cod said, that som…

Regarding growing incivility. I moved from the US to Poland around ‘05. Not long ago I went to the US, Bay Area, for the first time in ten years, on a business trip for my employer. I didn’t expect such a culture shock but the incivility was striking. Every day I would run into absolutely savage behavior while just commuting or getting food. I wasn’t sure what to make of it and this here is the first time I’ve seen Americans discussing civility.