Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now • Hacker News Board

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#121

Post by glup » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 3:32 PM UTC

adolph wrote: post #13

danaris wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, way to be incredibly classist. "If you can't afford to support someone else, why are you treating yourself to a luxury of any kind?" Everyone needs luxuries sometimes. The solution to tipped employees not getting enough money is not to bully people who can't comfortably afford higher tips out of going out; it's to a) encourage unionization, b) eliminate the separate "tipped minimum wage", and c) raise the minimum…

It is interesting to think about the various ways tips are used: 1. User feedback: customer quality perception 2. Variable pricing: if customer can pay more, they do; customers without as much are not turned away 3. Untaxed earnings: tax authorities set a theoretical floor, but undocumented cash is difficult to substantiate Are there others?

Obfuscating the total cost when the consumer is making decisions—-the menu price is like the listed price in Google Flights, then taxes and tips are kind of like the baggage and seat fees on low cost airlines.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#122

Post by 2OEH8eoCRo0 » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 3:32 PM UTC

nepeckman wrote: post #87

It's a shame that the comments here are laser focused on the tipping parts of the article, and not the bigger picture items. The author outlines the struggles of getting service jobs filled in high CoL areas, the vicious cycle of turnover in these jobs, and all the commenters here want to discuss is the 2 paragraphs on tipping.

Is it the only aspect of the article that most on this site can relate with? I take it most have not worked service industry or it was a very long time ago.

I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/14/us/apt-cape-cod-restauran...

> The verbal abuse from rude customers got so bad, the owners of one farm-to-table restaurant on Cape Cod said, that some of their employees cried.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#123

Post by AdrianB1 » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 3:33 PM UTC

post_break wrote: post #15

Welcome to the terrible world of tipping. Subsidize the wages so the employer doesn't have to. I got out of my way to avoid any type of business or service that has tipping. It's getting so bad out there I've seen people talk about getting asked for a tip in a drive thru. Do I tip when I eat out? Yes. But that's cut down to a minimum now. I think we're headed towards a breaking point. Profits and cost of living canno…

I hate the tipping culture in the West (as opposed to places like Japan, where there is almost no tipping at all) mostly because the tip was initially meant as an exception for service above expectation, not as a regular component of the pricing. From my perspective even regular service deserves no tip, I expect to be charged for the service and tip only for exceeding expectations, but it does not work that way for a long time.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#124

Post by ianhawes » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 3:35 PM UTC

TL;DR Macro trends:

- older folks retired or never re-entered workforce after COVID

- employees, for the first time in ~20 years, understand they can quit their job today and get hired somewhere else tomorrow

- corporate won't raise wages because "they're already too high", ignoring any variation in the location's cost of living

- teenagers have more options/entertainment available to them today and don't want to seek out traditional employment. The author's "their parents are rich" line has some nugget of truth to it unfortunately. Plus they don't want to be yelled at by angry entitled customers.

Specific to the author's situation:

- a business that would not traditionally rely on tips (a fucking movie theatre) relies on tips much to the detriment of the employees

- tips are dispensed on a scam debit card (IMO should be illegal),

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#125

Post by KeAShizukuTio » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 3:36 PM UTC

brimble wrote: post #45

gbrindisi wrote: post #8

I am always baffled when I read about the tip culture in the states. I find it so belittling for workers. It seems to incentivize a mentality of "the customer is always right", with workers putting an extra effort to always smile and be nice in the hope for a fair tip.

> I am always baffled when I read about the tip culture in the states. I find it so belittling for workers. It seems to incentivize a mentality of "the customer is always right", with workers putting an extra effort to always smile and be nice in the hope for a fair tip. There was an early-20th-century movement in the US to end tipping, for that reason. The thinking was that it created too much of a relationship of s…

No post body was provided.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#126

Post by sumtechguy » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 3:36 PM UTC

refurb wrote: post #83

post_break wrote: post #15

Welcome to the terrible world of tipping. Subsidize the wages so the employer doesn't have to. I got out of my way to avoid any type of business or service that has tipping. It's getting so bad out there I've seen people talk about getting asked for a tip in a drive thru. Do I tip when I eat out? Yes. But that's cut down to a minimum now. I think we're headed towards a breaking point. Profits and cost of living canno…

Nope. When I worked tips were way preferable. A busy night could get me $50/hr just in tips. Maybe $500 in a night if I was lucky. You could boost me to 2x minimum wage and I’d still make less. There is a reason why the tipping system still exists.

That is highly dependent on the type of restaurant you work at. Someone I know would make 100-250 a night a one place. Moves to another one, she was maybe getting maybe 20 total a night. Moves to another one 80-150...

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#127

Post by bena » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 3:36 PM UTC

peteradio wrote: post #78

soco wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I understand: me as a customer, whether I pay the menu + 20% tip, or I pay a menu 20% more expensive, I end up exactly the same. So why is for the restaurant owner better with tipping, instead of raising the prices 20% and putting an entry sign "no tipping needed here, we pay our workers right"? Even call the restaurant "no tipping place" if they wish. Can someone with experience in restaurant business e…

Menu: $5 burger Customer 1 (richy rich): $5 + $2 tip Customer 2 (workin man): $5 + $1 tip Customer 3 (poor man): $5 no tip Total: $18 Menu: $6 burger Customer 1 (richy rich): $6 + $1 tip Total: $7 You've reduced your customer based on true affordability and perceived affordability. This doesn't consider the margin on selling a single burger but generally you need to push product rather than sell master pieces.

Your contrived hypothetical scenario is not proof of your conjecture.

Because there are plenty of places that don't work with tips that do fine. Hell, some of our least expensive options operate in a tip-free environment. And no restaurant where tipping is expected is selling for the same price as fast food places in the first place. So it's not the scenario where you're looking at two options that seem equally priced, but one has the hidden tip tax on it. No, you're looking at two options where one is just more expensive and you have to tip.

And why are restaurants special in this regard? Why does no other sector have to operate on this model, where a customer has to directly pay a businesses employees? And why only in the U.S.? How did the rest of the world figure this one out but we can't seem to shake it?

Tipping is stupid and is anti-ethical to actual customer service as it pits staff against the customer and creates resentment in both directions.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#128

Post by 6gvONxR4sf7o » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 3:36 PM UTC

burkaman wrote: post #19

gbrindisi wrote: post #8

I am always baffled when I read about the tip culture in the states. I find it so belittling for workers. It seems to incentivize a mentality of "the customer is always right", with workers putting an extra effort to always smile and be nice in the hope for a fair tip.

It is belittling, and almost nobody except restaurant owners likes it. It's sort of a game theory problem - if we could coordinate everyone to stop tipping, then restaurants would be forced to pay their workers normal wages, and almost everyone would be better off. But if I stop tipping, I'm just an asshole making no impact on society. I guess the only practical approach is to simultaneously keep tipping and push for…

I’m in CA, which doesn’t have a tipped minimum wage loophole, and the tipping culture keeps increasing what’s an expected tip, and more and more places expect you to tip, so it seems like it’s never going away. Just upwards.

But also, it’s not just restaurant owners that like it. A lot of tipped workers make out really well with tips and prefer it that way.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#129

Post by lotsofpulp » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 3:36 PM UTC

NikolaeVarius wrote: post #76

voltagedivider wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any chance they're trying to end the practice of tipping for the betterment of workers in the long run?

I too refuse to pay for services to protest the mistreatment of workers.

Paying the amount you are asked to pay is not refusing to pay for services. Just like any other business transaction.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#130

Post by peteradio » Fri, Jan 21, 2022, 3:37 PM UTC

pjmorris wrote: post #118

peteradio wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Menu: $5 burger Customer 1 (richy rich): $5 + $2 tip Customer 2 (workin man): $5 + $1 tip Customer 3 (poor man): $5 no tip Total: $18 Menu: $6 burger Customer 1 (richy rich): $6 + $1 tip Total: $7 You've reduced your customer based on true affordability and perceived affordability. This doesn't consider the margin on selling a single burger but generally you need to push product rather than sell master pieces.

Seems like you'd still have two customers (The burger is still in 'workin man''s budget), at 2/3 the food cost.

You are right, but I removed him to make the point that this is partly based on perception of the person doing the buying.

Workin man this week is poor man next week and then some weeks he's richy rich. Do you want to capture all forms of this guy?

None of this is rigorous of course but ya know we don't have a town full of 1 guy with a single budget. We have a town full of people with various and changing budgets, what kind of mechanism can be put into place to keep base finances workable in tight times while extracting more in good times?