Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

jasonstanford.substack.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 456 posts

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#151

Post by ajmurmann »

2OEH8eoCRo0 wrote: post #122
nepeckman wrote: post #87

It's a shame that the comments here are laser focused on the tipping parts of the article, and not the bigger picture items. The author outlines the struggles of getting service jobs filled in high CoL areas, the vicious cycle of turnover in these jobs, and all the commenters here want to discuss is the 2 paragraphs on tipping.

Is it the only aspect of the article that most on this site can relate with? I take it most have not worked service industry or it was a very long time ago. I'm interested in what seems to be the growing incivility toward other people. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/14/us/apt-cape-cod-restauran... > The verbal abuse from rude customers got so bad, the owners of one farm-to-table restaurant on Cape Cod said, that som…

I think this Reddit comment from a use called TheMagecite on parenting during the pandemic might get to some of it: "No.

So lets take my example I have two children one has autism.

What my son desperately needs is social interaction, how do you teach social interaction well without peers? He can't see other children and right now he has such limited exposure to other children he is about to start school and it is a nightmare.

While my son is brilliant in some ways and could read and write at age 3 however his social skills and general understanding are just so far behind. Due to the pandemic normally there would be spots in a special class but so many kids who would have normally progressed just have gone backwards has meant there are zero spots for my child. It also has meant all of the therapies which make the world of difference (and earlier intervention the better) have either been canceled or moved to remote which is no where near as good.

I used to take my son out every weekend and get exposure to kids or take him to water parks and just have fun with them. Now we are sheltered at home with very little to do and we crack out board games but the ipad has probably been his main entertainer. I have work and we have other children but we do make sure it is educational stuff but we still feel tremendous guilt.

I work, we have other children and well while everyone says we have managed to do an amazing job during the pandemic as my son has still progressed which is different from what most other children in his situation have done. My partner and I feel horrible and honestly we are just completely burnt out. We could have done more, we should have done more but I think depression and being burnt out has just fucked us.

I fucking hate myself for this and I probably will feel guilty the rest of my days. I am sick of being told we have done an amazing job considering. Considering Covid doesn't help my child.

This just SUCKS.

Also my child's experience with Autism is probably better than most. I feel horrible for the vast majority which have it worse than me and I can't imagine what they are going through." https://www.reddit.com/r/Coronavirus/comments/s8wpsz/covid_p...

Edit: added more context to the comment.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#152

Post by mynameishere »

l8rpeace wrote: post #100

Former politician who focused on labor joins the workforce and learns the real truth THEN chastises customers for not tipping in the conclusion of his article? Yes, he talks about the tough conditions of the job and customer behavior and other things, but nothing about how MAYBE legislation should change for wages (hourly service workers relying on tips in the US actually make well below the hourly minimum wage). Sor…

I think he's actually going through the exercise of confirming his prior beliefs with "experience".

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#153

Post by bluGill »

pitaj wrote: post #46
burkaman wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is belittling, and almost nobody except restaurant owners likes it. It's sort of a game theory problem - if we could coordinate everyone to stop tipping, then restaurants would be forced to pay their workers normal wages, and almost everyone would be better off. But if I stop tipping, I'm just an asshole making no impact on society. I guess the only practical approach is to simultaneously keep tipping and push for…

I think you'll find that servers and bartenders are the most adimant supporters of tipping. They make a killing.

The good ones love the tip system. They get the most tips, and also tend to be the types of people recruited to the higher prices restaurants where higher tips are normal. They draw in repeat customers for their great service.

I used to know a waitress who was making just as much as her engineer husband. She looked good for 55, but 55 will never look good enough to draw in many high tips based on looks. (good lucks is a factor in service to a lot of people, but it didn't apply here)

The bad ones get bad tips and hate the system, but they should be fired anyway.

On the one hand I don't like having to figure tips. However a few times I've got bad service and at least I could do something about it.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#154

Post by sokoloff »

AdrianB1 wrote: post #123
post_break wrote: post #15

Welcome to the terrible world of tipping. Subsidize the wages so the employer doesn't have to. I got out of my way to avoid any type of business or service that has tipping. It's getting so bad out there I've seen people talk about getting asked for a tip in a drive thru. Do I tip when I eat out? Yes. But that's cut down to a minimum now. I think we're headed towards a breaking point. Profits and cost of living canno…

I hate the tipping culture in the West (as opposed to places like Japan, where there is almost no tipping at all) mostly because the tip was initially meant as an exception for service above expectation, not as a regular component of the pricing. From my perspective even regular service deserves no tip, I expect to be charged for the service and tip only for exceeding expectations, but it does not work that way for a…

My first night in Tokyo with a group of friends, we had an amazing multi-hour meal with loads of drinks and generally catching up. We knew we didn't have to, but we tipped generously by American standards. We got chased into the street by two of the waiters and had a large argument with neither side wanting to take the tip money. I assumed tips would be "not expected, but quietly accepted" which turned out to be not at all the case.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#155

Post by leetcrew »

ryanmarsh wrote: post #115
gbrindisi wrote: post #8

I am always baffled when I read about the tip culture in the states. I find it so belittling for workers. It seems to incentivize a mentality of "the customer is always right", with workers putting an extra effort to always smile and be nice in the hope for a fair tip.

Ironically some expensive restaurants in the states add “gratuity” (like a service charge) to the bill and do not rely on tipping. This ensures their hard to recruit staff (sommeliers, skilled wait staff, etc…) can be paid enough to keep working there.

I've only ever seen this policy applied to large parties, and it's below the standard tip percentage anyway.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#156

Post by ghaff »

irrational wrote: post #141
ghaff wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Social norms. But, yes, it's creeped up from 15% before tax to 18-20% on the total bill in general.

Yes, but social norms don’t come out of nowhere. It was 15% for a long time, then it went to 18% (why 18? I can see the jump to 20% as people wanting to do easier math than 18%). Someone somewhere had to have created this new social norm.

> Someone somewhere had to have created this new social norm.

Someone didn't need to do anything and as far as I know, no individual decreed anything. (Although possibly guidebook and etiquette writes have helped contribute.)

It makes some sense with inflation and probably lack of increase in wait staff salaries. Restaurants often show recommended tips and even mandatory service adders for large groups. But, for the most part, it's probably been mostly organic.

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#157

Post by [deleted] »

NikolaeVarius wrote: post #54
pitaj wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you'll find that servers and bartenders are the most adimant supporters of tipping. They make a killing.

Making a killing is pushing it unless you're working at a high end place. I really wonder how many HN people have ever worked in a waitstaff role. As much as you might hate it, tips keeps you just above minimum wage 95% of the time. Its not some money fountain like some people here seem to thing it is. People who want tips of course want it because it gives them money on top of minimum wage, why the hell would you ex…

[deleted]

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#158

Post by lotsofpulp »

ipython wrote: post #112
mhb wrote: post #62

There's a line out the door and workers are quitting because of low pay and bad working conditions? It seems like a former labor secretary would, instead of blogging about a static situation, understand that this is a self-correcting problem. If you have demand that you can't satisfy, you raise your price.

He’s not in the position to do that though. He’s a bartender. It’s clear he is advocating for higher wages and better conditions and even notes that the management of the theater tried to do so but the national chain leadership shot them down.

I know quite a few businesses that leveraged themselves with CMBS to refinance during the mid to late 2010s whose debt service coverage ratio are about to go below the agreed upon threshold because of rising labor costs.

They borrowed money and gave up the business and land as collateral in exchange for some frothy valuations and limiting personal liability, but the terms are that if they exceed their DSCR, they enter default.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/d/dscr.asp

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#159

Post by ajmurmann »

DarylZero wrote: post #145
ajmurmann wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's always disappointing to me is how for many the first instinct is "lazy young people" while often times the exact same people espouse "the free market". It seems to me that often times the same people really only care about low taxes for themselves and making away with regulations that annoy them, rather than truly embracing the mechanism and tradeoffs that come with a free market and for sure don't understand…

Quoted post unavailable.

I naively thought the whole point of the market was to effectively route resources to where they are most in demand and allow innovation from the ground up where it's needed without central planning

Re: Former Labor Secretary Found What Work Is Like Now

#160

Post by bena »

bradleyjg wrote: post #93
interestica wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the idea that the gratuity should be a percentage of the selling price of the goods is also weird. Someone makes more money if they did the same work but handed you more expensive food.

Real estate agents are the craziest example of this.

That's just a commission on a sale. It's the similar, but not the same. When I buy a house, there isn't an amount tacked on to pay the agent, that comes out of the sale price.*

Unless you're saying real estate agents are expecting tips now. That's messed up.

*Now, there are a bunch of other hidden fees and closing costs associated with a house to where you just need X% of the cost of a house in just to handle that bullshit.

Post reply on HN