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Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

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Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#321

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do wonder how much of HN culture is affected by very smart people (in one domain) being subconsciously led to believe things by the machinations of tech. As smart people, they take very passionate positions on issues they believe strongly. Perhaps they wouldn't have believed them so strongly in a vacuum though?

You nailed something that I've noticed. Highly competent and intelligent people tend to lean libertarian in my experience. It's only when they get cancer, or finally meet some form of humility that they see the inherent advantages they had over others for what it is. Simply a roll of the dice. Competent, capable, hardworking people often fail to see the bigger picture, and dismiss others that aren't like them. If you…

That seems backwards to me.

Many libertarians are above average in intelligence, in part because it's a less mainstream viewpoint, but I don't think it follows that intelligent people tend to be libertarian. I could be wrong about that, but I've met enough intelligent people whom are the opposite of libertarian that if there is any relationship between intelligence and libertarianism that it's probably small.

> Competent, capable, hardworking people often fail to see the bigger picture, and dismiss others that aren't like them.

It's interesting that you say that. I can't say that you're wrong if that's a result of your experience. On the contrary, I've found that those who are competent, as you say, and have their heads down in hard work a lot, are as liable to viewing the world as being anti-meritocratic. Though I wouldn't go as far as to say whether the world is strictly meritocratic or anti-meritocratic, I think there's more of a relationship between having such black and white viewpoints and having one's head down in work for so many hours that little time is left to read about different facts and opinions.

My best example is a good friend of mine who is also above average intelligence, but works in a field outside of tech where he is, in contrast to me, much more of a slave to the office, hence he spends a great deal of time staring at one subject and not interacting much with information outside his field of view. His perspectives are often very black and white, and he would view the world as being entirely anti-meritocratic. Being an openly communist type, I could make some educated guesses about why that is, but I'll leave my opinion on that vague for now. When we have discussions about any number of things, including meritocracy, it's pretty obvious to me that he holds these black and white opinions because he's rather oblivious to the various counterarguments and experiences of others outside of his narrow field of study. Yet he is at least 120 IQ.

I just realized I indirectly insulted your view on meritocracy. I'm not really here to debate that, and your conclusion may be entirely valid. (and I would say not completely unjustified)

Yes, it's one anecdotal example, but that's a repeated observation of mine. Besides, pigeon holing people into single categories is a flaw of its own.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#322

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're severely underestimating the power of collective bargaining. A good union will advocate for you even if you don't do anything. It removes a lot of the secrecy, ambiguity, and work when it comes to getting the maximum value out of your employment. Too worn out or anxious to keep pushing for a raise? the union's got it. Issues that you would never mention to your boss as an individual for fear of retaliation? th…

> even if you don't do anything From my experience, this sounds awful. I have a person on my team currently that does nothing and brings down team morale and it’s pretty clear that everyone would want them gone. We might even work better because we wouldn’t work under the assumption that we have N people when we really have something like N - 1. Perhaps unions are better when you don’t depend on your coworkers’ contr…

You know what, having a 2nd job of "how to ensure you're not missing out on promotions/salary increases because company tries to underpay you" is a shitty job I would rather not have to do.

Is your workplace unionized?

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#323

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have the opposite experience - I’ve found that people who are good at abstract thinking (most of my software engineering colleagues) tend to also have more empathy than average people. In fact, I believe empathy is just a form of abstract thinking.

Sympathy yes, empathy not so much. Abstract thinking pretty much makes it so that you can reason about your emotions, so you're not subject to that of others.

> Abstract thinking pretty much makes it so that you can reason about your emotions, so you're not subject to that of others.

That's interesting. I wouldn't suspect that to be the case, but perhaps I'd need to think about that more. I would guess that while abstract thinking may not have much of a relationship with empathy directly, it may be a pattern of thinking that benefits highly emotional individuals in that if they are capable of empathy then being able to make connections between disparate concepts can help them intuit where someone else's emotions are coming from, hence helping them be better empathizers. Of course that doesn't mean abstract thinking creates empathy, but perhaps it helps existing empathy.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Others here seem to be speculating that it has to do with the number of business owners here, but I don't think that paints the entire picture. I'm a single guy who's a senior software engineer with no one depending on him, and I've never had difficulty finding a job (quite the contrary), hence the benefit of being unionized doesn't outweigh the negatives. If an employer mistreats me, then I leave. It's that simple.…

> I don't think Google would be concerned about unionization if they were as terrific as is often claimed. This doesn't follow. In general, unions are bad for companies. That isn't the same thing as saying that they're good for employees. If they do nothing useful and increase overhead, they're bad for both. Unions also have structural incentives to impose things like seniority rules, because existing employees have…

I see what you're saying, and while I agree that indeed, unions are basically always adversarial to the employer at some level (every?), that doesn't mean that every employer or industry needs to prioritize unions on their list of things to be concerned with or counteract.

To take my argument to its logical extreme, let's imagine the real world probability that an asteroid may hit BigCo HQ and completely destroy its main data center and most of its key staff, killing the business both figuratively and physically; while that possibility is extremely remote, it's still a non-zero probability. Is it a good use of time for BigCo's execs to come up with a plan to lobby the government to build a giant laser to obliterate incoming asteroids? Would any individual bother? Probably not, because a more likely an immediate threat to BigCo is competition from other BigCos and even SmallCos, government regulation and so forth.

In comparison, if a particular company or industry happened to have such a culture where everyone was generally benevolent, everyone was making lots of money hand over fist, and the work-life balance was optimal, then it really doesn't make sense for big wigs to seriously consider dealing with the possibility of employees taking collective action to gain leverage because the will among individual employees may not exist. Maybe it'd manifest as a topic during a meeting between big wigs only to be shrugged off and replaced by the next agenda item.

On the other hand, if BigCo realized that something is creating a high probability that its employees will unionize, which is adversarial to BigCo, but the thing that is generating said will to unionize is too ingrained and there's no incentive for leadership to change it, the path of least resistance may be to develop techniques to persuade employees not to take action that may be in their own favor.

Indeed, unions can be bad for both employers and employees. That doesn't really matter, though, because either enough employees are going to believe they will benefit from a union or not, despite whether that becomes effectively true, and businesses know that unions are bad news for them; the business also couldn't care less whether a union is bad for their employees unless that hurts productivity by-proxy, as is the case with your example with talent attraction.

All that rambling is to say that I believe that all the individual pros and cons of unions can be presented and weighed, but ultimately the primary driver that creates the will to unionize comes from just how disgruntled or alienated employees feel. If employees don't feel alienation, if they feel they are treated with respect, they like the work they are doing, they are paid fairly, and can go home without stress at the end of the day, then what's the incentive to unionize? So that I can give yet another boss a slice of my paycheck that they didn't earn? Rather than think about all that, I'd rather just hit the gym after work, go home and not harbor that stress.

This is why I make presumptions about life as a Googler in a general sense. If being a Googler is the kind of career apex it at least once was seen as, it seems odd that those who have "made it" would think they need to spend time and money on unionizing. And why would Google's solution be so tactical? My guess is that there are reasons why Googlers in particular would want to unionize, that Google knows this, and have decided that the best way to address the issue is to weaponize psychology. Otherwise, it wouldn't be such a secret. Hell, they actually hired a company that specializes in this.

I could be way off base because I've never worked for Google, and having worked for Apple I'd presume that there are divisions of Google that operate significantly different from the others. Nevertheless, I still think it's reasonable to see a relationship between the employee experience and whether unionization is a real threat to a business.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#325

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with cynical takes like this is they absolve Google of any responsibility. Are they profit seeking? Yes. Does every for-profit company engage in 4D chess with its employees convincing them that unions are bad? No. This is a specific mea culpa of Google, not a flaw inherent in every company and we shouldn’t absolve them of fault because they’re “profit-seeking.” > come ready for battle every day On one han…

No, it does not absolve anyone of responsibility. Accepting that bad people exist and are bad and that their badness needs to be fought against, does not make the bad people somehow less-responsible for the badness.

I'm with you on this one.

But here's the thing: They're all (95+%) fucking terrible. No exaggeration, no drama; they're literally evil and for real killing us and the planet.

Rs and Ds, judges and lawyers, Banks, Media Energy, Pharma, Guns, and Big Tech - all of them.

People might think this comment isn't helpful - because they don't see the above as scum. But they are.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The New York Times has had an anti-tech vendetta for a while now. I believe the news should have a vendetta against anyone and anything that has outsized influence and control in society. I don't think the NYT has the domain experience or insight to present the most damning critiques of big tech. I think that even when they get a chance, they'll prefer hot button topics over than the meatier but less sexy lines of c…

>I believe the news should have a vendetta against anyone and anything that has outsized influence and control in society. so, should news have a vendetta against news? because one thing i've seen over the past 6 years is how much influence media has on the population.

Absolutely. And the good journos do have a bone to pick with the media, but a lot are hacks and don't see it or just use it to advance their own goals.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#327
post #3

Seems to have worked amazingly well based on all the times I recall reading the comments of stories posted here involving unions.

HN has a lot of people on both sides of this issue. You may be falling prey to the notice-dislike bias: we're all much more likely to notice the posts we dislike, and to weight them more heavily. This leads to the sense that the community is lined up against you, but it's an artifact of perception: people with the opposite perception share exactly the same feeling, but they imagine the community being lined up in just the opposite way.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#328
post #265
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders Exploit you with industry leading pay and perks? Unions are designed to balance out monopolistic / low pay / highly geographical companies like large auto manufacturers or airlines. There is so much competitive hiring in tech, it’s one of the easiest c…

It is so strange that Google lobbied so hard against something like this and then tried to ensure it didn't get traced back to them. Almost like it saw there being a big downside to a union being formed. I really wonder why that is? Honestly, I really can't see this anti-union rhetoric as anything but being terribly naive. For further evidence of bad behavior that you can't avoid by changing jobs (because under this…

Right now all Google IC promo/refresh/PIP decisions are made in closed rooms with only middle managers present. When Google gets a union, the union will force Google to add transparency to the perf process. This will take a lot of power away from empire-building middle managers.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#329
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I don’t think this kind of analysis is ever productive. Not even if it's true?

The problem is that it's always true. If you're open to changing your mind in response to evidence and arguments, then your current beliefs will depend on which information you've seen, and thus you will have been influenced by organizations who chose to promote information supporting their own beliefs. We're affected by the machinations of tech, but also the machinations of retailers and unions and political parties…

>The problem is that it's always true.

Is it, though? We've got here an article about a multibillion dollar company using its money and influence to peddle a view that's beneficial to them and trying very hard to make it look like it's not actually coming from them. This is absolutely not always the case. This is more than just run of the mill people being open to changing their minds then, is it?

>in every instance I've seen, including this one, it was deployed as an argument that some specific belief should be disregarded

I think you've misread the post above, because at no point in that comment was it suggested that said belief should be disregarded.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it does not absolve anyone of responsibility. Accepting that bad people exist and are bad and that their badness needs to be fought against, does not make the bad people somehow less-responsible for the badness.

I'm with you on this one. But here's the thing: They're all (95+%) fucking terrible. No exaggeration, no drama; they're literally evil and for real killing us and the planet. Rs and Ds, judges and lawyers, Banks, Media Energy, Pharma, Guns, and Big Tech - all of them. People might think this comment isn't helpful - because they don't see the above as scum. But they are.

I don't disagree. The sooner people can get wise to the idea that all relationships with government, employers, etc. are at least moderately adversarial by nature, the better. Power dynamics, etc.

The one problem is that people use this "everyone is terrible" argument to justify selfish libertarianism. "All politicians are bad anyway, so I voted for the one that appeals to my personal beliefs." This seems to be more of a "right-wing" and/or "libertarian" phenomenon, to the point where it seems to be used as a dogwhistle in some circles. So I'm hesitant to promote it.

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