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Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

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Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#281

Post by compiler-guy »

andrewxdiamond wrote: post #214
gundmc wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What "housing deductions and childcare costs" does Google provide? A web search didn't turn up much and this doesn't sound like a standard benefit.

I also am having difficulty finding documentation for this, but I know it’s true. Many condo and apartment complexes around Google campuses have “preferred employer rates” that slash the rent for Googlers.

I have been at Google for many years, and the only time I have ever heard of this are certain corporate housing for long-term temps working in MTV and for a while there was some subsidized intern housing.

If such rates exist, they are uncommon or not often talked about.

There may be better proof out there, in which case you ought to provide it. But until I see something better, I am very skeptical.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#282

Post by ChrisLomont »

knappe wrote: post #265
awb wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders Exploit you with industry leading pay and perks? Unions are designed to balance out monopolistic / low pay / highly geographical companies like large auto manufacturers or airlines. There is so much competitive hiring in tech, it’s one of the easiest c…

It is so strange that Google lobbied so hard against something like this and then tried to ensure it didn't get traced back to them. Almost like it saw there being a big downside to a union being formed. I really wonder why that is? Honestly, I really can't see this anti-union rhetoric as anything but being terribly naive. For further evidence of bad behavior that you can't avoid by changing jobs (because under this…

> Almost like it saw there being a big downside to a union being formed. I really wonder why that is

It's also possible for a union to be bad for the company AND employees at the same time, right? Just because actor A dislikes something does not imply it must be good for actor B.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#283

Post by nerdponx »

uncomputation wrote: post #215
queuebert wrote: post #23

Imputing altruistic morals to profit-seeking entities and then continually being surprised and offended when companies act shady puts employees in a pointlessly weak position. Instead, treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders. There is no shame in fighting for yourself. You are worth it.

The problem with cynical takes like this is they absolve Google of any responsibility. Are they profit seeking? Yes. Does every for-profit company engage in 4D chess with its employees convincing them that unions are bad? No. This is a specific mea culpa of Google, not a flaw inherent in every company and we shouldn’t absolve them of fault because they’re “profit-seeking.” > come ready for battle every day On one han…

No, it does not absolve anyone of responsibility.

Accepting that bad people exist and are bad and that their badness needs to be fought against, does not make the bad people somehow less-responsible for the badness.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#284

Post by missedthecue »

AlexandrB wrote: post #18
mrits wrote: post #5

Yeah, let's focus on the company that pays their employees 15x minimum wage and has top tier vacation, healthcare, and maternity/paternity leave.

Could also be rephrased: let's focus on the company that was probably colluding with its competitors to keep wages artificially low[1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/apr/24/apple-goo...

Isn't that really just the inverse of a union, which facilitates collusion between the sellers of labor (employees) to raise the price (wages)?

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#285

Post by x0137294744532 »

VirusNewbie wrote: post #277
erikerikson wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany offers an example of unions that work with the rest of corporate leadership to maintain the health of corporate fiscal flows and labor pools among the other concerns they attenuate to. This reads to me like characatures used to construct a straw person argument. Your inevitability decoration is denied by observable fact.

No one in their right mind would rather work for a german software company in a union than work for an american one without a union. EDIT: Hyperbole here, and it was lost on some. Despite unions in germany, German companies are exploiting their workers compared to lucrative salaries that non union US software engineers are enjoying. The gap beteween the lifestyle of a german software engineer and a US one is quite la…

I would and I am sane of mind.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#286

Post by rdiddly »

awb wrote: post #219
queuebert wrote: post #23

Imputing altruistic morals to profit-seeking entities and then continually being surprised and offended when companies act shady puts employees in a pointlessly weak position. Instead, treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders. There is no shame in fighting for yourself. You are worth it.

> treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders Exploit you with industry leading pay and perks? Unions are designed to balance out monopolistic / low pay / highly geographical companies like large auto manufacturers or airlines. There is so much competitive hiring in tech, it’s one of the easiest c…

See if I'm an executive at a company that offers industry-leading pay and perqs, what am I so worried about then? Why would I work so hard to hinder employees' organizing, especially if what you say above is so self-evident? I find it far-fetched for example (and I know you're not saying this and hopefully would not say it) that Google was looking out for the employees' best interests by surveilling/misinforming them and subverting their efforts at forming this misguided undesirable gosh-darn pesky employee union that they for some insane reason mistakenly think they want! Perhaps those employees were grown adults and reached the conclusion through rational means, that they did in fact want a union. But even if they reached the conclusion by flipping a coin or asking their German shepherd, they should have the freedom of choice rather than being undermined through sinister methods. Put it to a vote! The people who don't want a union can vote no!

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#287

Post by erikerikson »

VirusNewbie wrote: post #277
erikerikson wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany offers an example of unions that work with the rest of corporate leadership to maintain the health of corporate fiscal flows and labor pools among the other concerns they attenuate to. This reads to me like characatures used to construct a straw person argument. Your inevitability decoration is denied by observable fact.

No one in their right mind would rather work for a german software company in a union than work for an american one without a union. EDIT: Hyperbole here, and it was lost on some. Despite unions in germany, German companies are exploiting their workers compared to lucrative salaries that non union US software engineers are enjoying. The gap beteween the lifestyle of a german software engineer and a US one is quite la…

Please explain. It seems you harbor assumptions as to the context in which right minds are making their decisions.

Perhaps a German citizen living in Germany with young children that is supported by local family; "only" speaks German, Afrikaans, and Chinese; and is independently wealthy but enjoys writing software might disagree.

I know that since I dramatically changed my contexts the way I look at roles changed dramatically.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#288

Post by busterarm »

danans wrote: post #236
busterarm wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed. Also everyone seems to forget that the history of unions in the US is inseparable from mafia racketeering. To the point that the federal government had to break some of the power of unions in order to break up the effectiveness of mafia racketeering.

> Also everyone seems to forget that the history of unions in the US is inseparable from mafia racketeering. This is disingenuous, because the sort of unions that were involved with racketeering were manufacturing unions, specifically the Teamsters, and overlapping a period during the late 19th century where corporations often employed actual violence (with paid armed security squads) against workers who attempted to…

The American Mafia ran it's biggest and most profitable racket, concrete for construction in NYC, aka the Concrete Club, from 1977 to 1985...long after the period you're talking about.

You can even read about the corruption and (non-mafia) racketeering involved in NYC's lifeguard union, which continues literally to this very day.

In most major cities, the mafia controlled a majority of the unions and used them to effectively provide mafia made men and associates with no-show jobs to provide non-earners in their organization with a paycheck -- on top of all of that they would find ways to skim a few percent off any labor being done.

It's also easy for you to bring up teachers and nurses' unions not being mafia controlled -- jobs predominantly staffed with women. The American mafia literally cannot have women members per its own rules, so of course they couldn't influence those unions.

If you do your research though, you'll see that the Russian mafia is heavily skimming from medical services through control of the nurses' union in Germany. There is no reason they couldn't replicate that here.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#289

Post by awb »

toss1 wrote: post #223
queuebert wrote: post #23

Imputing altruistic morals to profit-seeking entities and then continually being surprised and offended when companies act shady puts employees in a pointlessly weak position. Instead, treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders. There is no shame in fighting for yourself. You are worth it.

Yup And if there was any doubt, this action by Google — in and of itself — should convince everyone (outside of Google management) that unions would be a good thing.

That's not universally true.

Imagine this scenario: If as OP stated employees treat their employer as an adversary, it's a reasonable outcome where adversarial employees demand more than a sustainable company would be willing / able to give. You cannot trust employees to demand a reasonable amount any more than you can trust companies to offer a reasonable amount. Both sides want to maximize their gains. If a collective group of employees have leverage over their employer (through strike threats, mass resignation threats, etc.), it's a perfectly expected outcome for them to squeeze the last ounces of profitability out of a company before it fails, then jump ship to the companies that replace it, especially for non-geographically dependent tech companies.

Just as if the company had maximum leverage and no minimum wage / government intervention it would be a perfectly expected outcome for the company to squeeze the the last ounces of concessions out of their employees before replacing them, as we saw throughout most of history.

It's nice to think that morals would intervene and both sides would find a healthy, sustainable balance, but that's the ideal outcome, not the realistic one.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#290

Post by relaxing »

uncomputation wrote: post #262
micromacrofoot wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're severely underestimating the power of collective bargaining. A good union will advocate for you even if you don't do anything. It removes a lot of the secrecy, ambiguity, and work when it comes to getting the maximum value out of your employment. Too worn out or anxious to keep pushing for a raise? the union's got it. Issues that you would never mention to your boss as an individual for fear of retaliation? th…

> even if you don't do anything From my experience, this sounds awful. I have a person on my team currently that does nothing and brings down team morale and it’s pretty clear that everyone would want them gone. We might even work better because we wouldn’t work under the assumption that we have N people when we really have something like N - 1. Perhaps unions are better when you don’t depend on your coworkers’ contr…

Parent meant “do anything to curry favor from your boss.” Not that everyone gets promotions no matter how bad they suck.

But even that’s not true in my experience - under the union there were still performance reviews where you had to advocate for yourself a little bit. It just all had to go through official channels.

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