Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#131

Post by 1MachineElf » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 4:58 PM UTC

BuckRogers wrote: post #32

mhoad wrote: post #3

Seems to have worked amazingly well based on all the times I recall reading the comments of stories posted here involving unions.

I believe unions are actually necessary. Necessary evil at times or not, it's a human right to have a union. I've never been in a union, but my wife is. And I've worked as management with unions in a factory setting. It was fine, actually. The company I worked for that was unionized was the best, most efficient corporation that I've ever seen. In fact it was a superior there that told me, when I was more anti-union,…

I enjoyed your comment because it seemed balanced across multiple interesting perspectives:

* What changed your mind when you were more anti-union.

* How upper management perceived unions.

* What joining a union means for your spouse.

* Why you would support a union today.

I've only worked in one place that had a union. I couldn't see the benefit. The union seemed to be contributing to collective laziness and complacency. Being motivated to go above and beyond always put me at odds with the union people who would snitch on me for working after hours. Maybe I wouldn't feel so motivated to improve things if more employees were contributing higher than the just bare minimum? This was a union for a US government agency.

>And there probably shouldn't be any government unions

Seems you understand that perspective as well.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#132

Post by pwinnski » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 4:58 PM UTC

headmelted wrote: post #103

brightstep wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions reduce profits by giving employees a voice to protect themselves, demand the compensation they deserve, etc. It's therefore inevitable that corporations (Google, FAANG, or any others) will try to preempt or destroy them. It is their duty to shareholders.

This is downvoted, I assume because people are maybe disagreeing with the principle rather than the validity of what you said. A lot of large companies clearly do look at unions as something that forces them to pay more compensation for less work, which they'd have to justify to shareholders and the board. Even if the board would be cool with it, and they could make it fly with shareholders, leadership bonuses and st…

"It is their duty to shareholders" is a factually-incorrect statement.[0] That piece of misinformation needs to die out.

0. https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/8146/are-u-s-co...

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#133

Post by _wolfie_ » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 4:58 PM UTC

ergocoder wrote: post #89

shadowgovt wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a member of the union, you have a vote on the union's position on issues. This differs from your options outside the union, where your only "vote" is to quit, which (pathologically) concentrates within the company the opinion you would have voted against.

It is the same problem, isn't it? If I want to work on those projects and don't agree with the union, and 50% of the Union vote the other way, my only choice is also to quit. I don't agree with the union's direction of forbidding company to work on a perfectly legal project. If you want the project to be illegal, maybe call your senate instead?

I don't know how the union law works in the US. Over here (Europe), you can have multiple unions in one company. It takes minimal 3 people to form one. So you could probably form a union for pro-DoD people?

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#134

Post by _jal » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 4:58 PM UTC

vanusa wrote: post #52

queuebert wrote: post #23

Imputing altruistic morals to profit-seeking entities and then continually being surprised and offended when companies act shady puts employees in a pointlessly weak position. Instead, treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders. There is no shame in fighting for yourself. You are worth it.

Altruistic expectations, no. But I seem to recall a time (up until perhaps 15 years ago) when Google would not have been expected to engage in such blatantly Machiavellian tactics as placing fake op-eds. Nowadays though, I don't put anything past Google.

Google is a huge, public company.

Any ideals that survived going public will slowly be ground out by repeated exposure to management consultants from McKinsey and the hordes of MBAs attracted to the smell of ibanker excitement.

You can't go public, or become part of a public firm, and not become more like the rest of the big players.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#135

Post by reilly3000 » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 4:58 PM UTC

One of the typical arguments against unions has been that they take a lot of money from employees to pay for dues. I think that is a dated argument from a bygone era. With modern tech stack there is far less administrative overhead, and union meetings can be conducted virtually or async. Additionally, the relative dues for running a union in a tech setting are going to be a lot lower as a percentage of salaries as they tend to me much higher. If there are other arguments that somehow unions harm employees I’d love to hear them.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#136

Post by caskstrength » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 4:59 PM UTC

BuckRogers wrote: post #40

noah_buddy wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do wonder how much of HN culture is affected by very smart people (in one domain) being subconsciously led to believe things by the machinations of tech. As smart people, they take very passionate positions on issues they believe strongly. Perhaps they wouldn't have believed them so strongly in a vacuum though?

You nailed something that I've noticed. Highly competent and intelligent people tend to lean libertarian in my experience. It's only when they get cancer, or finally meet some form of humility that they see the inherent advantages they had over others for what it is. Simply a roll of the dice. Competent, capable, hardworking people often fail to see the bigger picture, and dismiss others that aren't like them. If you…

> It's only when they get cancer, or finally meet some form of humility that they see the inherent advantages they had over others for what it is.

It is surprising to me since I'm not from US. Don't tech workers at Google have good health and life insurance for such cases?

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#137

Post by pwinnski » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 4:59 PM UTC

cle wrote: post #129

enragedcacti wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tesla: 5k review, 3.4 stars GM: 9k reviews, 4.0 stars GM is also higher rated on most metrics in the "Work Happiness" survey https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Tesla https://www.indeed.com/cmp/General-Motors

Are these representative samples?

Probably more representative than "I see..."

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#138

Post by yupper32 » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:00 PM UTC

A lot of people seem confused why a lot of tech people aren't pushing for unions.

For me it's simple: Tech has brought me from near poverty to pretty darn wealthy. Why mess with that?

Could a union help increase wages even more? Maybe. Are we being paid too little compared to our output? Maybe. But at the same time I'm being paid more than I could have possibly imagined before I entered the field.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#139

Post by Ginden » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:00 PM UTC

defaultprimate wrote: post #111

I mean Google is genuinely evil, but unions do suck. UAW, NEA, and AFL-CIO have been absolutely terrible for their respective industries.

Unions are organizations that transfer value from employer and non-union members (including not-employed-yet employees and customers) to union members.

Long term effects of that transfer are rather unpredictable, because there are too many factors in economy.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#140

Post by andrewxdiamond » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 5:00 PM UTC

ravenstine wrote: post #119

mhoad wrote: post #3

Seems to have worked amazingly well based on all the times I recall reading the comments of stories posted here involving unions.

Others here seem to be speculating that it has to do with the number of business owners here, but I don't think that paints the entire picture. I'm a single guy who's a senior software engineer with no one depending on him, and I've never had difficulty finding a job (quite the contrary), hence the benefit of being unionized doesn't outweigh the negatives. If an employer mistreats me, then I leave. It's that simple.…

Pure speculation on my part but I think Google unionizing makes the most sense out of any FAANG. Googlers in SF are “trapped” by the benefits they get.

> the employee has more leverage over the employer than in many other fields

Housing deductions, childcare costs, food, travel, etc are all heavily subsidized by the company making it near impossible to leave without moving out of the Bay Area. Housing benefits alone can be an enormous deterrent because if you quit Google, your rent can jump up 50% easily.