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Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

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Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#71

Post by brightstep »

vanusa wrote: post #52
queuebert wrote: post #23

Imputing altruistic morals to profit-seeking entities and then continually being surprised and offended when companies act shady puts employees in a pointlessly weak position. Instead, treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders. There is no shame in fighting for yourself. You are worth it.

Altruistic expectations, no. But I seem to recall a time (up until perhaps 15 years ago) when Google would not have been expected to engage in such blatantly Machiavellian tactics as placing fake op-eds. Nowadays though, I don't put anything past Google.

Unions reduce profits by giving employees a voice to protect themselves, demand the compensation they deserve, etc. It's therefore inevitable that corporations (Google, FAANG, or any others) will try to preempt or destroy them. It is their duty to shareholders.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#72

Post by shadowgovt »

mrits wrote: post #5

Yeah, let's focus on the company that pays their employees 15x minimum wage and has top tier vacation, healthcare, and maternity/paternity leave.

Yes, let's. Because it's the same company that colluded with other Silicon Valley firms to keep the pay artificially low relative to market value through non-solicit handshake agreements (https://www.cnet.com/news/apple-google-others-settle-anti-po...).

The best trick management plays against workers is to convince them that their opponents in the game of capitalism are other workers, not management. Are software engineers over-payed? It's entirely possible, but that isn't justification for their company illegally screwing them any more than Amazon is justified in screwing its warehouse employees.

And as a movement, the message for labor organization would be powerful if Google employees successfully unionized: that even well-compensated employees deserve the benefits of collective bargaining against a corporation that is structurally incentivized to screw them when it can get away with it.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#73

Post by Aerroon »

noah_buddy wrote: post #47
StevePerkins wrote: post #29

Is there really anything here, if you remove the 'scare quotes'?

Nothing you couldn't glean with a common sense approach to material interests at play in a workplace. Of course a corporation wants to extract as much wealth with as little overhead as possible. Outside of ineffectual executives, there are few that orient companies towards making less money intentionally. Analyzing every choice made in a work place through this lens is both dead simple and continually enlightening. S…

>Some commentator once noted that those elite with the highest levels of wealth (say top 1%) don't disbelieve Marx's analysis of the world and capital distribution.

Top 1% global income is about $60,000 a year. Many Americans are above this, yet I doubt that they feel strongly about what you mentioned.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#74

Post by onlyrealcuzzo »

outside1234 wrote: post #58
3pt14159 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if adversarial systems result in asymmetric arms races and the game theoretic best move is to work for a corporation that is so short sighted as to go to battle against their own employees and to work for them diligently and intelligently? Because I see a whole lot happier employees at Tesla than I do at General Motors. I'm not saying this is an all-or-nothing thing. I'd join a union if I was working for a certa…

Are they happier at Tesla? Because I hear it is pretty terrible place to work as a software engineer.

I assumed it must've been the non-manufacturer people who loved it. Because there have been an absurd amount of complaints from the people in manufacturing.

I guess, it could be awful at Tesla, but maybe GM is even worse?

I know GM had a REALLY bad reputation in the days of the NUMMI plant.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#75

Post by shadowgovt »

dekhn wrote: post #43
yunwal wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unions also don't need to be used for personal compensation and benefits. Plenty of software unions fighting for the ethical interests of the employees, which is an area where Google leaves a lot to be desired.

What if I disagree with the union's position on ethics? For example, I do not agree with Google's decision to avoid some DoD contracts (I worked in Google at the time). I'd only want a union to handle my work aspects (and even then... it's not clear they would provide me with all the wonderful things I have received over the years from Google and other tech employers).

As a member of the union, you have a vote on the union's position on issues. This differs from your options outside the union, where your only "vote" is to quit, which (pathologically) concentrates within the company the opinion you would have voted against.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#77

Post by [deleted] »

brightstep wrote: post #71
vanusa wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Altruistic expectations, no. But I seem to recall a time (up until perhaps 15 years ago) when Google would not have been expected to engage in such blatantly Machiavellian tactics as placing fake op-eds. Nowadays though, I don't put anything past Google.

Unions reduce profits by giving employees a voice to protect themselves, demand the compensation they deserve, etc. It's therefore inevitable that corporations (Google, FAANG, or any others) will try to preempt or destroy them. It is their duty to shareholders.

[deleted]

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#78

Post by ergocoder »

cool_dude85 wrote: post #9
mrits wrote: post #5

Yeah, let's focus on the company that pays their employees 15x minimum wage and has top tier vacation, healthcare, and maternity/paternity leave.

None of that makes it ok to bust unions.

But it does point out that this is not a union that will improve worker's condition like a regular union.

The Google union aims to stop Google to work on certain projects.

Many don't agree with unions. What should those people do? Make another union?

If people don't want to work on DoD contract, they can transfer to other teams. There are like 1000 teams in Google. Internal transfer is not hard.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#79

Post by asddubs »

3pt14159 wrote: post #38
queuebert wrote: post #23

Imputing altruistic morals to profit-seeking entities and then continually being surprised and offended when companies act shady puts employees in a pointlessly weak position. Instead, treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders. There is no shame in fighting for yourself. You are worth it.

What if adversarial systems result in asymmetric arms races and the game theoretic best move is to work for a corporation that is so short sighted as to go to battle against their own employees and to work for them diligently and intelligently? Because I see a whole lot happier employees at Tesla than I do at General Motors. I'm not saying this is an all-or-nothing thing. I'd join a union if I was working for a certa…

>Because I see a whole lot happier employees at Tesla than I do at General Motors.

are you just saying that or have you spoken to a number of employees of both companies? It's kind of interesting to me because I would have assumed the opposite to be the case.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#80

Post by ejb999 »

outside1234 wrote: post #58
3pt14159 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if adversarial systems result in asymmetric arms races and the game theoretic best move is to work for a corporation that is so short sighted as to go to battle against their own employees and to work for them diligently and intelligently? Because I see a whole lot happier employees at Tesla than I do at General Motors. I'm not saying this is an all-or-nothing thing. I'd join a union if I was working for a certa…

Are they happier at Tesla? Because I hear it is pretty terrible place to work as a software engineer.

given the job market, while it may 'suck', clearly nobody is making them stay. i.e. may suck on a day-to-day basis, but get rewarded richly after x amount of time

Almost anybody can complain about their job, but in this industry, in this job market right now - anyone staying is staying because the pluses outweigh the minuses.

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