Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’ • Hacker News Board

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#81

Post by enragedcacti » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 4:42 PM UTC

3pt14159 wrote: post #38

queuebert wrote: post #23

Imputing altruistic morals to profit-seeking entities and then continually being surprised and offended when companies act shady puts employees in a pointlessly weak position. Instead, treat the relationship as adversarial and come ready for battle every day against the legal structure designed to exploit you for the benefit of distant shareholders. There is no shame in fighting for yourself. You are worth it.

What if adversarial systems result in asymmetric arms races and the game theoretic best move is to work for a corporation that is so short sighted as to go to battle against their own employees and to work for them diligently and intelligently? Because I see a whole lot happier employees at Tesla than I do at General Motors. I'm not saying this is an all-or-nothing thing. I'd join a union if I was working for a certa…

Tesla: 5k review, 3.4 stars

GM: 9k reviews, 4.0 stars

GM is also higher rated on most metrics in the "Work Happiness" survey

https://www.indeed.com/cmp/Tesla

https://www.indeed.com/cmp/General-Motors

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#82

Post by cwilkes » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 4:42 PM UTC

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #30

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #6

I don't believe it's only Google, and I don't think it's particularly secret.

The New York Times has had an anti-tech vendetta for a while now. Most likely, in my cynical worldview, because tech has hurt their subscription numbers immensely, not because they want to do the world a service. An example of this is when they published a whole story about a guy who became radicalized from YouTube... and then became unradicalized a few months later without doing anything radical. But someone could h…

So … they shouldn’t have run a story on dark patterns? Just sweep it under the rug?

It looks like this is the story: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/30/opinion/dark-pattern-inte...

Which I found really well done. In fact I think it shows how one part of the company can police the other by putting up articles like this.

Your comment is like saying only Olympic level athletes can write articles on exercising.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#83

Post by sunaurus » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 4:43 PM UTC

BuckRogers wrote: post #40

noah_buddy wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do wonder how much of HN culture is affected by very smart people (in one domain) being subconsciously led to believe things by the machinations of tech. As smart people, they take very passionate positions on issues they believe strongly. Perhaps they wouldn't have believed them so strongly in a vacuum though?

You nailed something that I've noticed. Highly competent and intelligent people tend to lean libertarian in my experience. It's only when they get cancer, or finally meet some form of humility that they see the inherent advantages they had over others for what it is. Simply a roll of the dice. Competent, capable, hardworking people often fail to see the bigger picture, and dismiss others that aren't like them. If you…

I have the opposite experience - I’ve found that people who are good at abstract thinking (most of my software engineering colleagues) tend to also have more empathy than average people. In fact, I believe empathy is just a form of abstract thinking.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#84

Post by TrevorAustin » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 4:43 PM UTC

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #30

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #6

I don't believe it's only Google, and I don't think it's particularly secret.

The New York Times has had an anti-tech vendetta for a while now. Most likely, in my cynical worldview, because tech has hurt their subscription numbers immensely, not because they want to do the world a service. An example of this is when they published a whole story about a guy who became radicalized from YouTube... and then became unradicalized a few months later without doing anything radical. But someone could h…

This conspiratorial take is a decade out of date. New York Times coverage of tech has gotten more skeptical, but so has public opinion generally as their size and impact has increased dramatically. https://www.pewresearch.org/internet/2018/06/28/public-attit...

Meanwhile, the Times did take a huge beating in the 2000s during the transition from print to digital and with the collapse of classified advertising. But today they're up 1000% from their 2009 low and flirting with historic highs. They're a category-defining digital media company with millions of digital-only subscribers that's on a tear buying up smaller players. https://www.google.com/finance/quote/NYT:NYSE?sa=X&ved=2ahUK...

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#85

Post by ravenstine » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 4:43 PM UTC

While my personal opinion is that, in today's age, many unions suck and that some industries need unions more than others, employers who even think they should psy-op their employees into action/inaction for the benefit of the employer should get screwed.

I've heard some great things about how Google does things differently to create a better workplace for engineers and employees in general, but I'd seriously think thrice before taking a job there for many reasons including this one.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#86

Post by BuckRogers » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 4:43 PM UTC

AndrewUnmuted wrote: post #46

BuckRogers wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You nailed something that I've noticed. Highly competent and intelligent people tend to lean libertarian in my experience. It's only when they get cancer, or finally meet some form of humility that they see the inherent advantages they had over others for what it is. Simply a roll of the dice. Competent, capable, hardworking people often fail to see the bigger picture, and dismiss others that aren't like them. If you…

> Simply a roll of the dice. In that case, so is this very conversation, the fact that we're both on this website, and even the fact that we are both interested in tech. If it's simply a roll of the dice, then nearly all aspects to existence are pointless, there's no point in trying to think for oneself, etc. Perhaps this is what you truly intend to convey, but until you explicitly state this, this is an incoherent p…

shadowgovt said it very well and he speaks for me there. But I do believe that when hard work and preparation meets opportunity, good things happen.

I'm not saying everything is pointless at all. I've earned every one of the few pennies I have the hard way, believe me. I have a non-stop work history going back to when I was 11 years old, grinding down spot welding tips on a lathe to buy my own video games and toys. My efforts mattered. These experiences and my self-discipline built my character and who I am today.

There's some luck involved though. Whether it's your genetic makeup, how you were or were not groomed by your family, and simple right place, right time. To dismiss everyone as "failures in the meritocracy" is short sighted.

For example: John Carmack is a very successful programmer. I'd bet there's many here just as hard working, and as intelligent. He did the right thing, when he was at the right place, at the right time. That's all that separates Carmack from swaths, or multitudes of programmers on HN.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#87

Post by p_j_w » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 4:44 PM UTC

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #54

noah_buddy wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do wonder how much of HN culture is affected by very smart people (in one domain) being subconsciously led to believe things by the machinations of tech. As smart people, they take very passionate positions on issues they believe strongly. Perhaps they wouldn't have believed them so strongly in a vacuum though?

I don’t think this kind of analysis is ever productive. Have you considered the possibility that they’ve been convinced not by subconscious machinations but by arguments they believe are valid? If someone went around saying that your beliefs come from subconscious influence operations, is there any way you could prove them wrong?

>I don’t think this kind of analysis is ever productive.

Not even if it's true?

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#88

Post by gjsman-1000 » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 4:44 PM UTC

cwilkes wrote: post #82

gjsman-1000 wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The New York Times has had an anti-tech vendetta for a while now. Most likely, in my cynical worldview, because tech has hurt their subscription numbers immensely, not because they want to do the world a service. An example of this is when they published a whole story about a guy who became radicalized from YouTube... and then became unradicalized a few months later without doing anything radical. But someone could h…

So … they shouldn’t have run a story on dark patterns? Just sweep it under the rug? It looks like this is the story: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/30/opinion/dark-pattern-inte... Which I found really well done. In fact I think it shows how one part of the company can police the other by putting up articles like this. Your comment is like saying only Olympic level athletes can write articles on exercising.

If I was an ethical journalist, I would not run a story lambasting others for dark patterns until my own house was in order.

And if I wanted to run the story anyway, I would at least mention that my own newspaper is guilty of the same thing for full disclosure.

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#89

Post by ergocoder » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 4:44 PM UTC

shadowgovt wrote: post #75

dekhn wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if I disagree with the union's position on ethics? For example, I do not agree with Google's decision to avoid some DoD contracts (I worked in Google at the time). I'd only want a union to handle my work aspects (and even then... it's not clear they would provide me with all the wonderful things I have received over the years from Google and other tech employers).

As a member of the union, you have a vote on the union's position on issues. This differs from your options outside the union, where your only "vote" is to quit, which (pathologically) concentrates within the company the opinion you would have voted against.

It is the same problem, isn't it?

If I want to work on those projects and don't agree with the union, and 50% of the Union vote the other way, my only choice is also to quit.

I don't agree with the union's direction of forbidding company to work on a perfectly legal project.

If you want the project to be illegal, maybe call your senate instead?

Re: Google Had Secret Project to ‘Convince’ Employees ‘That Unions Suck’

#90

Post by beebmam » Mon, Jan 10, 2022, 4:44 PM UTC

asddubs wrote: post #79

3pt14159 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What if adversarial systems result in asymmetric arms races and the game theoretic best move is to work for a corporation that is so short sighted as to go to battle against their own employees and to work for them diligently and intelligently? Because I see a whole lot happier employees at Tesla than I do at General Motors. I'm not saying this is an all-or-nothing thing. I'd join a union if I was working for a certa…

>Because I see a whole lot happier employees at Tesla than I do at General Motors. are you just saying that or have you spoken to a number of employees of both companies? It's kind of interesting to me because I would have assumed the opposite to be the case.

Data better than anecdotes