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Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

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Re: Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

#471
post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's because they (claim to) not know what it means and are unwilling or incapable of finding out. The definitions which you yourself have given, lead to my hypotheses. The fact you are digging in, using insults like “infantile” when you’re being given the chance to supply an alternative, actually makes me think worse — I always prefer to assume good faith, and in this case good faith was to assume you didn’t rea…

You assume good faith in hypothesizing I'm fine with genocide. You're a laugh a minute. Lashing out like a toddler having a tantrum doesn't change meanings of words, sorry.

To communicate is to put thoughts into someone else's head. Those thoughts — and one of those options was that there isn’t a genocide — were what your words put into mine.

I want to think better of you than that, which is why I keep asking you to do better, even though from my point of you it’s you that is lashing out.

If someone misunderstands me as badly as you say I’ve misunderstood you, my general response is of the pattern “oh no that’s not what I meant, what I meant was…”, but I can’t fill that ellipsis in for you.

But if you don't care to, I'm not going to push it. My fursona isn't a sealion, if you get the reference.

Happy holidays.

Re: Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

#472

I think we should stop using China for cheap Labour in general given how hostile their government are becoming. Where possible I try to buy Taiwanese, Korean and Japanese electronics.

I've actually had some time to ruminate on this and as ever I think Ray Dalio probably knows a lot more about this stuff than I do. This is an extremely worthwhile watch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TISMidxdZoc

We can never go to war with each other and as such should continue trading and competing (maybe on fairer terms) to avoid such things - the destruction just from cyber warfare alone would be beyond insane.

Re: Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

#473
post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zero trolling here. I am modestly in favour of a COVID-19 vaccine "passport". And yes, I have considered the oppression side of the argument. Why am I modestly in favour? Look at how yellow fever vaccination status is handled. In areas of the world where it is still endemic, travelers are denied entry without a recent vaccination and an official UN/WHO card to prove it. (Please leave aside for a moment the idea that…

I've never traveled anywhere yellow fever is endemic so I don't know a ton about it other than the vaccination requirements you mention. I carry my vaccination card in my wallet so I'm not immediately opposed to some sort of verifiable way to confirm one's vaccination status. There are absolutely some instances where it makes sense to mandate it, but it's wrong to try to structure society so that you can't take part…

Thank you for your honest and balanced reply. I spent some time to think about it.

How do you feel about "anti-vaxxers" (a weird term by itself) refusing to get measles vaccines? (It is regularly quoted as one of the most infectious human viruses.) In the United States, some communities that have a high ratio of people whom refuse to vaccinate their children have seen outbreaks of measles. (Southern California!) It's a devastating disease for children who don't yet control their own destiny. Frequently, parents are themselves inoculated, but refuse the same vaccines for their own children.

I can understand and appreciate: For adults the decision for COVID-19 vaccine is a bit different. They are only controlling their own destiny.

Re: Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

#474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then I'll be brief. Check out this thread to get an idea: https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1465863939825221632 Check out Col Lawrence Wilkerson at the Ron Paul Institute, mark 22:20, on one of the reasons why the US was in Afghanistan (which borders Xinjiang): https://youtu.be/91wz5syVNZs?t=22m20s Check out Max Blumenthal, investigative journalist, on the quality of evidence surrounding Xinjiang: https://yout…

I took some time to read and watch the links and digest the info to respond: 1) I'm getting kind of conflicting signals from the sources. You promote the idea that these camps aren't what we know they are, the the third link, but the entirety of the your Twitter feed reads as a justification and comparison to the war in Afghanistan. I don't see how that would be an apt comparison unless these camps actually did exist…

(Part 1) You are raising very insightful issues. Arnaud's thread is an oversimplification. This comment is my best attempt at explaining the full picture, with the knowledge I have gathered in the past 3 years.

- There are unacceptable practices going on, but of a different scale and kind than described in mainstream western reporting. - The terrorism issue is mixed up with the issues of Uyghur identity and separatism. - The goal is to address terrorism, identity and separatism at the same time, using a variety of measures. - There is difference between official policy and local implementation. Policy implementation in China is very distributed, with significant local leeway to interpret and implement. Due to incompetency rather than malice, there is significant collateral damage and impact on innocent people.

Let's unpack the above.

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About the measures:

- Terrorism is addressed through security: lots of weapons checks, barriers and surveillance everywhere. Though this is not the only measure.

- Terrorism, identity and separatism are addressed through deradicalization, vocational training, government job programs and economic development. The thinking goes: if people's economic prospects become better (able to find jobs, more income) then they are less likely to fall for extremism and to harbor separatist sentiments.

- Identity is addressed through patriotic education.

There are prisons, deradicalization camps, vocational schools. Those are three different things. A major source of misunderstanding comes from the fact that western reporting lump all three together into "concentration/detention camps", while Chinese media and diplomats never talk about the first, seldomly about the 2nd, and usually about the 3rd. So when foreign media ask Chinese diplomats to elaborate on "concentration camps", and the diplomats say "we don't have those, we have vocational schools" then the diplomats are technically correct but there is already misunderstanding from the first second.

Prisons are for convicted criminals and terrorists, e.g. those who set off bombs, and come with prison labor (as is usual in Chinese prisons, and many prisons around the world).

Vocational schools teach skills and patriotic education. They are indeed voluntary. Vocational schools are often boarding schools.

The most problematic facilities are the deradicalization camps. They are for people who have gotten in touch with extremism but haven't done anything concrete. They are sort of a "vocation school ++": they are mandatory and they "brainwash" you into believing that extremism is bad (e.g. they teach you ideas like: women have rights, killing people for their beliefs is bad). They are mandatory boarding schools but not prisons. This is not a contradiction: mandatory boarding schools exist in other parts of the world too. And the environment is less unpleasant than true prisons.

Deradicalization camps probably are problematic for two reasons:

1. The criteria for what counts as "gotten in touch with extremism" is prprobably too broad, and so an amount of innocent people have been undeservedly rolled into deradicalization camps.

2. The people enrolled into them may not have committed a concrete crime yet. Chinese authorities say that their goal is to prevent terrorism from taking root rather than only acting after the fact. According to western thought, this practice is wholly unacceptable. However, commentators from Islamic countries, which have had a much longer and much more savage history with terrorism, criticize the western perspectice on the grounds that westerners underestimate the impact of terrorism. From the Chinese government's perspective, safe streets and social stability is more important than anything else: they view it as their duty to ensure that streets are safe (and a lot of the population agrees).

The security measures probably come with a certain amount of racial profiling, e.g. Han can pass security checks unchecked while Uyghurs are checked more thoroughly. More on this later.

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At the same time, there is a significant amount of misrepresentation (and even outright lies) from western media.

Some is deliberate, e.g. propaganda. Max Blumenthal highlighted the problems with the "x million" number, witness testimonies and more. There are real issues, but not to the extend alleged. Too many people have been undeservedly forced into deradicalization centers, but not "1 million" and they're neither prisons nor concentration camps. The BBC visited a vocational boarding school, painted it as a prison, then said people were not allowed to leave while literally showing footage of people leaving. There is no genocide: the population has grown quicker than Han, and it has been shown that Adrien Zenz's IUD number deliberately omitted a 0 (i.e. 80% should be 8%). Despite alleged systematic rape, killing etc by witnesses, there is a complete lack of a refugee crisis.

Other reports are accidentally wrong: misinterpretations due to lack of understanding of China. For example many of ASPI's sattelite image concentration camp locations turn out to be schools, farms, etc. It seems that the criteria for identifying a "concentration camp" is "it has high walls, barbed wires and fences on windows". But Nathan Ruser, a young fellow who just came out of school and got recruited by ASPI for doing this "research", apparently didn't know that a great many normal buildings in China have these features.

Re: Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

#475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then I'll be brief. Check out this thread to get an idea: https://twitter.com/RnaudBertrand/status/1465863939825221632 Check out Col Lawrence Wilkerson at the Ron Paul Institute, mark 22:20, on one of the reasons why the US was in Afghanistan (which borders Xinjiang): https://youtu.be/91wz5syVNZs?t=22m20s Check out Max Blumenthal, investigative journalist, on the quality of evidence surrounding Xinjiang: https://yout…

I took some time to read and watch the links and digest the info to respond: 1) I'm getting kind of conflicting signals from the sources. You promote the idea that these camps aren't what we know they are, the the third link, but the entirety of the your Twitter feed reads as a justification and comparison to the war in Afghanistan. I don't see how that would be an apt comparison unless these camps actually did exist…

(Part 2) As for "incompetence rather than malice":

There is a saying that aptly summarizes the issue: the central government told the Xinjiang authority to cut the hair, but they cut the entire head instead.

Local governments and police forces in China tend to be overzealous in implementing central policy. This is either because they're eyeing a promotion by showing how well they've reached KPIs, or because they're risk averse and don't want to deal with being punished for allowing a terrorist to slip through the cracks.

They also tend to brush with a broad stroke, hence lots of collateral damage which catches innocents in the process.

These are long standing issues and occur outside Xinjiang too, though slowly improving over time as competency improves. But it's especially bad in Xinjiang because:

1. Competent people don't want to be in Xinjiang: they tend to move elsewhere.

2. The central government wanted the terrorism issue under control as fast as possible. Incompetent officials and policemen focus on a singular goals and can't be bothered with something like collateral damage.

It's neither a racism nor official policy issue because:

- The head of Xinjiang is a Uyghur, and lots of government officials and policemen are Uyghurs. Uyghur policemen are trying to cut corners by racially profiling their own ethnicity.

- Official policy is give minorities preferential treatmenf through something similar to affirmative axtion. Minorities were exempt from the One Child Policy and they receive extra points on university exams. Laws are applied more leniently to minorities. This is not new and has been the case since the PRC's founding in 1949.

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Forced labor is limited to prison labor. Deradicalization centers have no prison labor as far as I know. There is no evidence of cotton, tomato or solar panel forced labor. My contact in Xinjiang is pretty furious about the recent US ban because this ban actually harms the lives of normal Uyghurs who make a living through these products.

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Regarding comparison to the US's conduct in Afghanistan: you paint a very different picture than the one I know of. For example, this: https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/af...

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Regarding international visits and transparency: there have been international visits.

Delegations from many non-western countries (including many islamic countries) have visited and said everything was fine, even saying they're impressed by the level of safety and development. A few years ago the UN sent a counter-terrorism expert to visit, who then wrote a positive report.

Of course, there are complications:

- The US protested that the report is not valid because a human rights expert should have been sent instead. They also protested that maybe we shouldn't send anybody to Xinjiang at all, because if the report turns out to be positive then that will give China undeserved legitimacy. Hmm.....

- Visits by non-western delegations are considered untrustworthy by western countries. The rhetoric goes that non-western countries have been bought by China. But this notion deprives those countries of their agency, and ignores the fact that friendly relations between China and the global south started way before China was rich.

If you ask me, the entire situation has been so thoroughly politicized that a neutral, objective inspection by foreign countries is not possible. Western countries won't accept any other outcome than "millions of Uyghurs are being genocided". There are a lot of dishonest reporters out there.

Which brings us to the next point...

At the same time, China distrusts western countries' neutrality and objectivity, and so they are incentivized to become less transparent.

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Regarding transparency and secrecy:

The west is essentially punishing China for being transparent. They used to divulge more about Xinjiang, but after a series of dishonest western media reports and propaganda, they became increasingly wary to the point where they'd rather shut everything down and making things more opaque. This becoming more opaque extends to issues beyond Xinjiang as well: as the US increasingly sanctions China using data obtained through transparency, China becomes more opaque in response.

China has always been clumsy in its communication with the west (though the opposite is also true). The issue of transparency is a long-standing issue. The Chinese government, and more generally Chinese people, tend to respond to any controversy by staying silent rather than through rebuttals. In Chinese culture, speaking is silver and silence is gold — a bit the opposite of many western cultures. Staying silent doesn't necessarily mean covering up: it means they gave up on communicating and are going their own way.

But of course, this behavior only makes westerners more suspicious, where silence is seen as evidence of sinister practice.

----

Regarding China's reputation of having been caught and therefore deserves a guilty until innocence proven attitude:

Is "having caught" really true? You mentioned internment camps but that very issue is under dispute. So let's ignore that one for now.

Forced abortions: if you're talking about the One Child Policy, then that hardly counts has "having been caught in the act". The One Child Policy and its implications have always been public knowledge. I find this example very weird.

Organ harvesting: these claims come from Falun Gong. But where is the evidence?

There was organ harvesting, but not the kind alleged by Falun Gong. What they did was using organs of already-executed prisoners, which I agree is questionable but it's also on a whole different level than killing random people for their organs, as Falun Gong alleged. More importantly, China stopped this practice around 2015 on its own volition.

I assert that the claim that China cannot be trusted on the grounds of past crimes, is very dubious if you look deeply into the actual evidence. There are a lot of allegations without evidence. Some allegations are based on true underlying issues, but heavily distorted. Some are straight up lies. The bad reputation is built on a pile of sand, with very few actual bricks in the pile.

I saw on the ground in China early 2020 how the entire COVID issue was massively distorted by foreign media. The entire Li Wenliang censorship story was misrepresented. Wuhan was allegedly full of dead bodies which have been covered up, and everybody was forced by the government to stay at home rather than voluntarily doing so. No.

It is true that western countries tend to be more transparent (though I question your assertion that any journalist can visit any jail; can they visit Guantanamo?). But concluding that opaqueness is automatically sinister is also a stretch. This notion is especially problematic because the US is abusing transparency of foreign countries for the sake of upholding its own supremacy and for imposing sanctions, rather than as a way to truly encourage good and just governance.

---

The end. As you can see, the Xinjiang issue is complex, and consists of a mix of many different issues. Multiple facts which appear contradictory are actually true at the same time.

I spent 2 days writing this. As you can imagine, with all this complexity it's really difficult to explain to most people what's going on.

Re: Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

#476
post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not be a paid shill (I’m certainly not accusing you of it - that would be against the rules) but your behaviour is indeed curious for someone who is trying to not look like one. For instance, why are you trying to get in touch with other HN’ers with a history of pro-China commentary? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29615344 Don’t be surprised that people are suspicious. And it’s not because of a differen…

What ModernMech said. I think what that other often downvoted user said made a lot of sense and that he's wrongfully being downvoted, so I wanted to talk to him in private and share our experiences. There is nothing wrong with that. Also, "users here are very tolerant of that" — I'm sorry, I have to disagree with that hugely. You say I'm "suspicious" because... I have repeated behavior of being suspicious? That's a c…

>Also, "users here are very tolerant of that" — I'm sorry, I have to disagree with that hugely. You say I'm "suspicious" because... I have repeated behavior of being suspicious? That's a circular reasoning. Also, this "repeated behavior of being suspicious" actually means "repeatedly having a different opinion about China". How is that being tolerant again?

Let's stay on topic.

What's suspicious is that you repeatedly and vociferously commented about the topic (alleged rape by a CCP official) until you were challenged about omissions in your translation/interpretation. An interpretation which downplayed the allegation, blamed the victim and curiously... omitted key details.

Then suddenly, when pressed further, "There is nothing suspicious about not answering about a subtopic".

Right. Ok. There is nothing suspicious about engaging in commentary which supports the CCP's official position on Peng Shuai while refusing to even acknowledge the words she wrote. Sure.

The alleged assault is not a "sub-topic", it was the only topic. That's what the thread was about. I know it serves your purpose well to make this about anti-China propaganda (which I agree exists and is a problem). But I've not made a single comment about China outside of this specific topic. The rest of your commentary is merely a clumsy attempt at painting me as racist in order to distract from the true topic. Stop it.

As to my motivation. Like I already told you, I am close with several woman who are survivors of assault. I find your unwavering support of the CCP and their actions in this particular instance suspicious, particularly because you are Western. It should be a no-brainer to condemn what happened here. It's plain as day what the CCP is doing.

Stop painting our disagreement as "differing opinions on China". That's FUD. What we have is differing opinions on the rights of women.

Re: Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

#477
post #335

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may not be a paid shill (I’m certainly not accusing you of it - that would be against the rules) but your behaviour is indeed curious for someone who is trying to not look like one. For instance, why are you trying to get in touch with other HN’ers with a history of pro-China commentary? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29615344 Don’t be surprised that people are suspicious. And it’s not because of a differen…

Why is it suspicious that an HNer wants to get in touch with a like-minded individual?

In isolation, nothing.

Re: Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

#478
post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone that's been there, I agree with this sentiment. I also happen to know people with cotton farms there, I even know how much they make, and nobody around is using slave labor. (and no I do not support / happy with the CCP - this is just what I've seen/experienced)

If there are anyone who do care about Chinese workers, pleas stop using TikTok, because programmers in ByteDance are really the one working around the clock like slaves. Just check out the 996.icu project, which ranks as #1 on GitHub.

This is something that I can attest to being a problem. I visited friends in China, and when we were done with our dinner, they went back to the office... I also know of some couples that have sex like, once a month, because all they do is work.

Re: Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

#479
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you break the HN guidelines this badly again we will ban you. They explicitly ask you not to post like this, for deep, clear, and long-established reasons (which can be summed up like this: well over 99.9% of internet complaints about astroturfing and shillage are demonstrably unfounded, and also full of poison that we don't want here). https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html If you want further explanati…

So 99.9% of the internet is manipulating the minds of everyone on the internet. Some of those people come to HN and post/upvote/downvote, and as a result of their lives outside of HN, they regurgitate slightly filtered PR as opinions or facts on HN. I guess what I'm asking is, how do you guys deal with second hand shilling and PR?

If you're asking how we deal with users who aren't consciously shilling but are regurgitating the effects of somebody else doing that, the answer is that there's no way to distinguish that case from the normal general case of people having strong opinions and/or being wrong about things—which is the default on the internet. All we can do is fall back on the general rules of the site (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html). That means answering bad arguments with better arguments, and incorrect information with correct information, while remaining patient and respectful with each other, and seeking points to agree about as well as disagree [1].

When feelings are running high, of course, it can often be too hard to do that. In that case, there's a plan B: chalk it up to someone being wrong on the internet, let go, and walk away. When hot under the collar, wait to cool down before posting (https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...). The internet is mostly wrong about most things anyhow.

People sometimes object to this answer: isn't that just giving in to manipulation, or at least the effects of manipulation? There's a thought experiment that I find helpful here: imagine a Sufficiently Smart Manipulator (SSM) who is disingenuous and totally sinister, but also clever enough to reliably evade detection [2]. I think most people can agree that either SSMs already exist (and by definition, we're not clever enough to catch them), or soon will exist. So we're either facing this situation already, or had better get ready for it. What should we do in that case?

The answer is that we should do what we ought to be doing anyway: answering bad arguments with better ones, bad information with better information, etc., while remaining in good connection with each other. It's in the interest of SSMs to divide and polarize the community, and it's in the community's interest not to let that happen, and instead to pool our energies to figure out the truth together [3]. The answer to the Sufficiently Smart Manipulator is the sufficiently healthy community [4].

The value of the SSM thought experiment is that it directs attention away from the question of detecting manipulators, which is notoriously unreliable (people succumb to all sorts of fantasies about this, and the evidence nearly always points the other way [4, 5]), and toward the question of what positive things we can do to build up a sort of immune system. There's no way to know whether it will work, but in the long run, and maybe the short run too, I don't see what other option we have.

[1] The reason for that last bit is that it introduces a human, relational element into the argument, which makes it much easier for people to do curious, reflective conversation instead of reacting reflexively and hardening into battle mode (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23959679).

[2] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&so...

[3] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...

[4] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27398725

[5] https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...

Re: Intel apologises in China over Xinjiang supplier statement

#480
post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you break the HN guidelines this badly again we will ban you. They explicitly ask you not to post like this, for deep, clear, and long-established reasons (which can be summed up like this: well over 99.9% of internet complaints about astroturfing and shillage are demonstrably unfounded, and also full of poison that we don't want here). https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html If you want further explanati…

>[FooBarWidget is] a CCP apologist par excellence, so you shamelessly referencing propagandists is not as surreal as initially perceived, just some casual undercover shilling. >well over 99.9% of internet complaints about astroturfing and shillage are demonstrably unfounded, and also full of poison that we don't want here). This is firmly in the 0.1%. https://twitter.com/honglilai

Sorry for the delay. You were quite wrong about that, and what's worse, wrong about it in a poisonous way (I'm sure unintentionally). The evidence points decisively to that account being a person of Chinese background who simply has different views than you do. It's natural for people of different backgrounds to have different views. If you can't stretch to accommodate that, and instead need to apply labels like 'astroturfer' or 'shill' in order to explain the presence of views so different from your own, the effect of that is to exclude minority voices. (Keep in mind that on this topic, unlike most others, the HN demographic is overwhelmingly one-sided. Although this is a highly international community, the overwhelming majority is Western and comes from a Western perspective.) Another effect is to poison the ecosystem here. That's not in the interest of this community, so we don't allow users to do that.

On a topic like this one, the cumulative effect of such (unintentional) poison is literally to hound users off the site for ethnic/racial/nationalistic reasons [1]. That's definitely not the community any of us wants to have here. Yet it has happened here more than once. If you read through some of the links at https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... you'll find the history. Here's one example of it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19403358.

Also, I compiled this list of past moderation explanations a while ago for a different user who was worried about this stuff on HN. Perhaps it will be helpful to others who are worried: https://news.ycombinator.com/chinamod

FooBarWidget is definitely breaking the site guidelines by having posted almost nothing but arguments about China for the last couple of years. We don't allow that, for reasons I just explained elsewhere (and many times previously): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29717102. But that's a separate issue. Someone breaking the site guidelines in that way is not evidence of bad faith, let alone being a shill or foreign agent. It is far more likely to be evidence that they feel strongly about a topic for legitimate reasons, such as family background.

All of which is to say: you broke the site guidelines badly here, so please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and please don't do that again.

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