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Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

theguardian.com

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Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#181

Post by yardstick »

jimworm wrote: post #171
yardstick wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn’t the real solution to disband MIQ? 90% eligible double vaccinated (95% eligible single dose). How long should MIQ exist for? Who should be responsible for paying MIQ dues? I disagree that the traveler should be responsible anymore due to the high vaccination levels. The NZ govt, if it wishes to continue denying kiwis freedom of movement to return home to NZ (or travel to other countries they are citizens of) sho…

If they had put in these proposed charges from the start, it would protect the NZ government from the criticism they're facing. Ending MIQ is inevitable but it's a one-way decision. Once the virus takes hold there's no going back, even if you take quarantine and isolation to China levels. Nobody likes a lockdown. My opinion is that the right time is when the globally dominant variant is a fast-spreading one with a pr…

Risk to who? Covid is already in NZ. Pretty much everyone is already vaccinated. If there’s a risk it is now insignificant.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#182

Post by chrisseaton »

tuatoru wrote: post #17
parkingrift wrote: post #10

>Immigration New Zealand (INZ) recently granted 32 visas to people who pledged to invest at least $10m locally over three years and another 76 visas to individuals pledging to invest at least $3m, according to the news website Stuff. > With their visas in hand, investors may apply to compete for spots in New Zealand’s congested MIQ system. A stay in MIQ is a prerequisite for entry to the country, which has been large…

In New Zealand we try to have something called the Rule of Law. The same laws and regulations apply to everyone regardless of wealth or political connection. The rule of law is the key innovation that allowed the industrial revolution to take place bringing the West to its present rich and free lifestyle. Adherence to the rule of law is a major reason why NZ is regularly in the top 5 countries globally for lack of co…

> we try to have something called the Rule of Law

Not sure why you’re talking about the idea rule of law like it’s something New Zealand invented or is somehow novel or unique?

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#183

Post by screenbreakout »

q1w2 wrote: post #131
tjpnz wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The visa scheme seems to be an enormous benefit to NZ. This scheme was once touted as a way to jump start the NZ tech sector but it doesn't appear to be having any impact. Those getting the visa might only be in the country a few weeks in a year and their investments are going into companies which haven't done anything innovative in decades. The most scathing part of all is that New Zealand's still a terrible place…

> ...and their investments are going into companies which haven't done anything innovative in decades. Not all investment sparks innovation - and innovation takes years. I would not expect people investing their life savings to get into NZ to invest in high-risk tech startups, but the investments they make will help the NZ economy all the same. Investment flow where risk-adjusted returns are highest - that's the nice…

How will it help New Zealanders if they just invest in real estate? Seems like a good speculative bet for them, but mostly it just makes it more difficult for young people to get afoot in the property market....

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#184

Post by ratorx »

tchalla wrote: post #147
ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #12

In almost all countries you can buy citizenship if you're rich. You don't even need to know the language. Immigration and all these gimmicks are for peasants only.

> In almost all countries you can buy citizenship if you're rich. I don't think you can buy citizenship in most Central/Western European countries. You may be able to buy residence status but not citizenship.

I think the parent is treating citizenship == permanentish visa in his comment. The article is also about a Investor visa, not citizenship.

I’ve checked 2 (UK and Switzerland) and both offer some form of Investor visa, so it’s really no different to the New Zealand situation (other than general restrictions on entering the country).

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#185

Post by ilrwbwrkhv »

tchalla wrote: post #147
ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #12

In almost all countries you can buy citizenship if you're rich. You don't even need to know the language. Immigration and all these gimmicks are for peasants only.

> In almost all countries you can buy citizenship if you're rich. I don't think you can buy citizenship in most Central/Western European countries. You may be able to buy residence status but not citizenship.

Permanent residency of some kind and citizenship right after. All the biggest Western European countries. Trust me when you have money, everyone's a whore.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#186

Post by ilrwbwrkhv »

xdennis wrote: post #109
ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #12

In almost all countries you can buy citizenship if you're rich. You don't even need to know the language. Immigration and all these gimmicks are for peasants only.

Are you certain about that? Few countries actually whore themselves out.

Yup certain. It is surprising that all the countries which complain about illegal immigration open their legs wide when you have the money. Looking at US, UK in particular.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#187

Post by ericmay »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #91
nowherebeen wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It seems like the outrage is about these brand-new residents getting equal treatment with current residents, instead of the current residents getting priority. This seems flawed to me. Do poor people get to queue up for MIQ? No, because they can’t qualify for the visa scheme because they aren’t rich enough. So it’s not really equal treatment for these new residents because they are already given an advantage becaus…

I'm very much for radically open borders — in economic terms, it's one of those twenty-trillion dollar bills lying around on the sidewalk that no one has picked up yet. And okay, that's a reasonable point to make — in isolation. But in context, do you honestly suggest that the New Zealand outrage described here would be remedied by opening more visas to more people, and getting them into the quarantine?

> I'm very much for radically open borders — in economic terms, it's one of those twenty-trillion dollar bills lying around on the sidewalk that no one has picked up yet.

This will probably happen, maybe in our lifetimes but it’ll be at the expense of the nation state and blocs like the EU. Probably a good thing such that people can choose where they want to live but it’ll eventually revert back to borders again very quickly as the wealthy shore up resources in the best places and then leave everyone else to fend for themselves. We already saw this “wealth flight” during the pandemic when remote tech workers and executives fled cities and high taxes to create their own little versions of Galt’s Gulch all over the mountain west and no income tax states. When we get to open border policies under the auspices of fueling economic growth you’ll see this occur again. And when this occurs the shells of former nation states will no longer provide services like healthcare because there won’t be anybody to pay for it. The wealthy certainly won’t.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#188

Post by jashmatthews »

yardstick wrote: post #148
tjpnz wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The visa scheme seems to be an enormous benefit to NZ. This scheme was once touted as a way to jump start the NZ tech sector but it doesn't appear to be having any impact. Those getting the visa might only be in the country a few weeks in a year and their investments are going into companies which haven't done anything innovative in decades. The most scathing part of all is that New Zealand's still a terrible place…

While NZ’s lack of capital gains tax should make it enticing, the terrible overseas investment policies/taxes make it less appealing to multi-national companies and investors. To those outside NZ: owning shares in non-NZ companies typically means a 5% yearly wealth tax if the shares don’t pay dividends (Ie most tech companies that are share price growth driven). See https://www.ird.govt.nz/income-tax/income-tax-for-b…

In NZ the normal way is Comparative Value which taxes the increase in market value when you sell.

Fair Dividend Rate isn't a wealth tax. It's a frankly bullshit option rich people can use when their investments do really well to cap the tax owed to 5% of the starting market value.

Hatch explain it a bit here: https://www.hatchinvest.nz/learn-articles/tax-50000-fif

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#189

Post by sabellito »

nowherebeen wrote: post #173
sabellito wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're saying that since, based on your personal experience, China doesn't play fair, NZ shouldn't be ok with this kind of wealth transfer? What about Russia, is that also your personal experience? Your point about playing fair seems a bit specific. Do you think american and european startups play fair? So in that case american and european tech-millionaires should be allowed to invest in NZ and get a visa?

> What about Russia, is that also your personal experience? >> As for Russia, I don't know enough to judge them. That, I apologize. > Do you think american and european startups play fair? >> I also like to point out, I don't think the West is any better either. > So in that case american and european tech-millionaires should be allowed to invest in NZ and get a visa? >> I also want to clarify this point. NZ is not u…

Absolutely no bone to pick! I'm from the camp that thinks that every millionaire didn't and doesn't play fair. Having said that, I don't have any issue with these investments visas, given the numbers that we usually see: a few hundred per year, at least in the countries I took a look at.

I do think your original and follow-up comments were just outright racist, though, which's a shame. Perhaps you could take a look at that perception you have, that "russian and chinese don't play fair", and justifying it with "they work too much" and "bullying tactics".

The wrapping of this last comment of yours is quite strange. Telling me to see a psychiatrist and then wishing me merry christmas haha I prefer direct rudeness and name-calling instead of whatever that is. Perhaps you could also take a look at that kind of behaviour and reconsider.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#190

Post by nowherebeen »

sabellito wrote: post #189
nowherebeen wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What about Russia, is that also your personal experience? >> As for Russia, I don't know enough to judge them. That, I apologize. > Do you think american and european startups play fair? >> I also like to point out, I don't think the West is any better either. > So in that case american and european tech-millionaires should be allowed to invest in NZ and get a visa? >> I also want to clarify this point. NZ is not u…

Absolutely no bone to pick! I'm from the camp that thinks that every millionaire didn't and doesn't play fair. Having said that, I don't have any issue with these investments visas, given the numbers that we usually see: a few hundred per year, at least in the countries I took a look at. I do think your original and follow-up comments were just outright racist, though, which's a shame. Perhaps you could take a look a…

> I do think your original and follow-up comments were just outright racist

I simply pointed out that the system was unfair to regular Chinese people. Something that almost all of my Chinese friends also agree in the tech industry. Since you seem to know quite a lot about the system in China, how many years of experience do you have working in China? Clearly, you must know a lot more than me judging by your comment and brushing off 996 as simply "working too much".

If I had to guess, I think you are a New Zealander that has never worked a day in China before. You defend China maybe because your parents are from there, but you have no idea what it is actually like to work there as a regular citizen. You call anyone that talks badly about China's system as racist.

If you truly think I am racist, then I feel sorry for your delusion. I urge you to move back and work there for at least 5 years. Perhaps then, you will see how the rich take advantage of those below and you wouldn't brush off 996 as simply "working too much" and "bullying tactics" as nothing when your wage depends on it.

In fact, I have yet to meet one regular Chinese person that defends the rich like you do. Most of them are hated in China for creating a highly unfair society. Those that do are usually people like you: full of vigor, nationalistic pride, and 0 life experience. The irony for you is that even CCP agrees with me regarding the rich.

It's a shame to meet people like you online really. To outright call people you don't agree with as racist.. no manners whatsoever.

> Telling me to see a psychiatrist and then wishing me merry christmas haha I prefer direct rudeness and name-calling instead of whatever that is.

I think that just points to our upbringing right? Direct rudeness was never acceptable where I grew up. But I am certain being rude to people is nothing more than having breakfast for you. And to be proud of it...smh. For your own sake, you might want to learn some manners sooner rather than later. People won't take it kindly to being called racist in the real world.

One last note, I was being serious about seeing a psychiatrist. It was meant for your own good. Your comments show serious signs of projection and self righteousness.

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