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Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

theguardian.com

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Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#81

Post by m4x »

Aerroon wrote: post #63
refurb wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup. Even authoritarian Singapore didn’t restrict its citizens from returning. It imposed rules on testing and quarantine, but they were free to jump on the next flight home. Incredible seeing democracies like Australia and NZ tell their own citizens “no, you cant come home”.

> Incredible seeing democracies like Australia and NZ tell their own citizens “no, you cant come home”. To be fair, it's not their first dance with authoritarian measures. Both countries also employ widespread censorship for movies and video games among other things. Perhaps it shouldn't be that unexpected that they would cross the line on this too.

If there's widespread censorship then I assume you can give some supporting examples?

The only notable "movie" that I'm aware of being censored in NZ was the live stream of the Christchurch mosque shooting that killed 51 people.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#82

Post by someguydave »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #70
tuatoru wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In New Zealand we try to have something called the Rule of Law. The same laws and regulations apply to everyone regardless of wealth or political connection. The rule of law is the key innovation that allowed the industrial revolution to take place bringing the West to its present rich and free lifestyle. Adherence to the rule of law is a major reason why NZ is regularly in the top 5 countries globally for lack of co…

Why does every discussion about some random country have to involve the US? It is getting really boring seeing the same mid-brow flawed arguments rehashed everywhere from Reddit's worldnews to HN. Btw, NZ can afford to maintain a top spot on all these lists because it is a gated country with population less than that of NYC. NZ's borders have always been closed for the world's poor. Now it is closed for non-elites an…

auctioning visas to the highest bidder seems like the fairest system

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#83

Post by pierre-renaux »

lancewiggs wrote: post #44
josephcsible wrote: post #39

Investor visas are just a distraction. The fundamental problem is that there's any restriction whatsoever on New Zealand's citizens entering their own country. The MIQ system should be abolished, and anyone who helped create it, or who has had enough power in the country to abolish it but chose to let it continue, should be put in prison for human rights violations (specifically, in the Universal Declaration of Human…

If we abolished MIQ then Aotearoa NZ would be riddled with COVID, many thousands or tens of thousands would have died, many many more living with chronic conditions and the economy and society crippled. As it happens less than 50 have died, each one a tragedy, while I’ve just had a lovely Christmas with 3 generations, as many others are around the motu. Sure we had to video call relatives in other countries, but thei…

Doesn't that just mean that NZ outsourced taking care of the expat NZ nationals that have Covid - and the cost of part of the Covid epidemic - to other countries though?

Not allowing your own citizen to return home is something that should be unthinkable really.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#84

Post by vmception »

starklevnertz wrote: post #79

What proof is required that the money is legally obtained? Or is it simply open money laundering for international criminals?

Typically standard KYC/AML.

Standard meaning that if it made it into a licensed institution that also does KYC/AML then its good enough for us!

Basically the concept is that its up to the customer to get money magically graced and cleared by their host government, and if there is not currently a problem its not anyone’s problem.

Think about it: what is legal?

China says that people with their currency cant move more than an equivalent of $50k/year out. If someone only earns Yuan on mainland China but has enough liquid money elsewhere to invest in this program, is it your problem to care about China’s currency controls to suggest this money violated that?

Well the same standard applies even if you were imagining terrorist financing and cartels.

There is no adequate system to know or care.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#85

Post by starklevnertz »

vmception wrote: post #84
starklevnertz wrote: post #79

What proof is required that the money is legally obtained? Or is it simply open money laundering for international criminals?

Typically standard KYC/AML. Standard meaning that if it made it into a licensed institution that also does KYC/AML then its good enough for us! Basically the concept is that its up to the customer to get money magically graced and cleared by their host government, and if there is not currently a problem its not anyone’s problem. Think about it: what is legal? China says that people with their currency cant move more…

No post body was provided.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#86

Post by cscurmudgeon »

someguydave wrote: post #82
cscurmudgeon wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does every discussion about some random country have to involve the US? It is getting really boring seeing the same mid-brow flawed arguments rehashed everywhere from Reddit's worldnews to HN. Btw, NZ can afford to maintain a top spot on all these lists because it is a gated country with population less than that of NYC. NZ's borders have always been closed for the world's poor. Now it is closed for non-elites an…

auctioning visas to the highest bidder seems like the fairest system

No it doesn't.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#87

Post by strontium_90 »

inter_netuser wrote: post #71
lcpriest wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the NZ bill of rights is applied the same way as other countries. > Section 4 specifically denies the Act any supremacy over other legislation. The section states that Courts looking at cases under the Act cannot implicitly repeal or revoke, or make invalid or ineffective, or decline to apply any provision of any statute made by parliament, whether before or after the Act was passed because it is incons…

why would they include something like that? whats the point of such bill of rights, if it has no supremacy?

New Zealand’s unicameral parliament, has supremacy over all other parts of government [1] and cannot be overruled or contradicted by any prior parliament’s legislation … the bill of right’s drafting reflects this. As a consequence of New Zealand’s somewhat atypical political history (as a former British colony without a federation treaty or other founding constitutional document), it’s not really possible to entrench any legislation so it can’t be overruled by a normal majority of a subsequent parliament.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parliamentary_sovereignty

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#88

Post by BuyMyBitcoins »

lancewiggs wrote: post #44
josephcsible wrote: post #39

Investor visas are just a distraction. The fundamental problem is that there's any restriction whatsoever on New Zealand's citizens entering their own country. The MIQ system should be abolished, and anyone who helped create it, or who has had enough power in the country to abolish it but chose to let it continue, should be put in prison for human rights violations (specifically, in the Universal Declaration of Human…

If we abolished MIQ then Aotearoa NZ would be riddled with COVID, many thousands or tens of thousands would have died, many many more living with chronic conditions and the economy and society crippled. As it happens less than 50 have died, each one a tragedy, while I’ve just had a lovely Christmas with 3 generations, as many others are around the motu. Sure we had to video call relatives in other countries, but thei…

>”Our society has decided that nobody should die from COVID. That’s still the right answer.”

This sentiment should terrify you. COVID is serious, but my god, there are so much more dangerous and lethal things out there. You’ve basically just given your government a virtual blank check to do as it pleases so long as the threat is sufficiently scary.

>”many many more living with chronic conditions and the economy and society crippled.”

You’re saying this would happen with widespread Covid, but this same outcome can happen with excessive containment. So many mom and pop small business have closed in my town since the pandemic began. And I live in America, where we aren’t nearly as restrictive.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#89

Post by nowherebeen »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #34
tuatoru wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In New Zealand we try to have something called the Rule of Law. The same laws and regulations apply to everyone regardless of wealth or political connection. The rule of law is the key innovation that allowed the industrial revolution to take place bringing the West to its present rich and free lifestyle. Adherence to the rule of law is a major reason why NZ is regularly in the top 5 countries globally for lack of co…

You are not describing Rule of Law. The rule of law is what you use to say that people are treated according to the law, not given special exceptions or punishments because of how much they are liked or hated. The opposite of the rule of law is generally the “rule of men” and is typified by the powerful having the discretion to punish enemies on a whim. Consider, for instance, someone who brings forth a charge of sex…

> It seems like the outrage is about these brand-new residents getting equal treatment with current residents, instead of the current residents getting priority.

This seems flawed to me. Do poor people get to queue up for MIQ? No, because they can’t qualify for the visa scheme because they aren’t rich enough. So it’s not really equal treatment for these new residents because they are already given an advantage because of their money. They qualify simply because they are rich.

Equal treatment would be letting all foreigners apply for the same visa scheme based on non-monetary merits such as occupation.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#90

Post by jollybean »

dwohnitmok wrote: post #80
jollybean wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think everyone would follow the rules, but I don't see that as a limitation to allowing people in. Frankly, being allowed back in your country is probably along the lines of 'human right' and there probably is not any condition in which the government could not allow it. There's plenty of ways to allow for isolation. NZ Climate is actually temperate, they could even have individual military tents with cots an…

> they could even have individual military tents with cots and plastic outhouses, while not exactly luxury, it could accommodate almost anyone, and most people esp. those under 35 wouldn't have a problem. > They could even do a rapid build of low quality structures i.e. mini-huts, pre-fab style, put them in locations outside the city. > Though a bit authoritarian, even ankle bracelets could be used in some case maybe…

Yes it would. And it's at least partly why they don't do it, which is sad, because our population is past the point wherein we will accept a bit of adversity as something acceptable.
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