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Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

theguardian.com

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Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#71

Post by inter_netuser »

lcpriest wrote: post #64
aunty_helen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, the entire MIQ program is a gross violation of the bill of rights and several international treaties. So I don't think the rule of law goes very far in NZ as they seem to just handwave it away and most people in NZ couldn't care less because of the fear they have from living reasonably isolated for the past year and a half. NZers should expect to be on the hook for at least a few class action lawsuits for d…

I don't think the NZ bill of rights is applied the same way as other countries. > Section 4 specifically denies the Act any supremacy over other legislation. The section states that Courts looking at cases under the Act cannot implicitly repeal or revoke, or make invalid or ineffective, or decline to apply any provision of any statute made by parliament, whether before or after the Act was passed because it is incons…

why would they include something like that?

whats the point of such bill of rights, if it has no supremacy?

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#72

Post by collegeburner »

mattdw wrote: post #67
onphonenow wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Um, folks get a visa and wait in line for MIQ. That's both the law and just like everyone else with a visa. Are you supporting mob rule? If so, you might wish to move to another country where "outrage" can lead to people getting killed right on the street in front of you. Seriously, if you see "outraged" in a headline, be careful.

NZ isn't currently issuing visas outside of a few categories of "special worker in shortage". (In order to citizens and residents a better chance at getting a quarantine spot.) So this introduces a new special exception for the very wealthy.

In the biggest economic slump since the Great Depression maybe it makes sense to consider rich people who invest lots of money into the economy a "specialized worker" since they might play an important role helping recovery.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#73

Post by InvertedRhodium »

refurb wrote: post #62
lancewiggs wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we abolished MIQ then Aotearoa NZ would be riddled with COVID, many thousands or tens of thousands would have died, many many more living with chronic conditions and the economy and society crippled. As it happens less than 50 have died, each one a tragedy, while I’ve just had a lovely Christmas with 3 generations, as many others are around the motu. Sure we had to video call relatives in other countries, but thei…

Who said abolish it? How about actually designing a system with enough slots so citizens can freely return? Other countries have done this, and controlled Covid, so why can Australia or NZ do it?

From the parent comment:

> The MIQ system should be abolished

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#74

Post by atweiden »

jordansmithnz wrote: post #29

New Zealander here. My wife and I just made it through the MIQ system in time to see our families for Christmas (and introduce our son to his grandparents for the first time). A few interesting things: - we had to enter the MIQ lottery five times before ‘winning’ a spot. The lottery system is the same used by some shoe drops and ticket reservations, and there is no weighting given to citizens that have enrolled in pr…

> Now that we’re years into COVID and vaccines are readily available, it’s extremely frustrating for New Zealanders with family or loved ones overseas. Public opinion is steadily shifting towards ‘open up the country’, and the government has announced some tentative dates for doing this (although they were recently shifted back due to omicron).

As someone who was in a Covid-free region of Australia all throughout the pandemic, I’ve seen first-hand what happens when borders are reopened. Local businesses are far less harmed from closed borders than they are from people avoiding clustering in indoor areas — either out of an abundance of caution for their health, or to avoid becoming a “close contact” of a Covid-19 case and then being forced into quarantine. Once borders reopen, associated mask mandates give everyone needless anxiety, while the hospital system beginning to buckle becomes a constant source of fear.

Closed borders allowed Australia and New Zealand to perform better economically than more permissive countries, and allowed their residents to live life like it was still 2019.

Permissive countries like America merely pretended to allow life to go on like it was 2019, while their conservative media exported tone deaf rationalizations for permissiveness to AU & NZ residents who were on average far better off than they were. The American media’s attempts at guilting antipodeans for closing themselves off to the world were laughed off as completely bizarre — most people were all too happy to allow the rest of the world to think they were doing it tough living their happy, blissful, Covid-free lives behind impenetrable borders.

AU & NZ would probably have at least another year of normal life left to live if their governments had directed international arrivals to quarantine in dedicated facilities in remote locations rather than in retrofitted hotels smack dab in the center of major urban areas.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#75

Post by jollybean »

bener wrote: post #57
jollybean wrote: post #31

This is mostly a problem with the bad rules around quarantining, which should not be a problem. It's 2021, are humans able to 'stay away from others' in spaces that are large and vast? Use some common sense and figure it out, there should be no material impedements here.

You think people would voluntarily isolate from each other without any rules in place?

I don't think everyone would follow the rules, but I don't see that as a limitation to allowing people in.

Frankly, being allowed back in your country is probably along the lines of 'human right' and there probably is not any condition in which the government could not allow it.

There's plenty of ways to allow for isolation.

NZ Climate is actually temperate, they could even have individual military tents with cots and plastic outhouses, while not exactly luxury, it could accommodate almost anyone, and most people esp. those under 35 wouldn't have a problem.

They could even do a rapid build of low quality structures i.e. mini-huts, pre-fab style, put them in locations outside the city.

Though a bit authoritarian, even ankle bracelets could be used in some case maybe for home quarantine.

Commandeering motels and hotels and putting the Health Authorities right on premise.

In Taiwan, when you arrive they don't want you on the public transit so they rent you a car.

They arrive to your home 10 minutes after you do with masks and explain the deal. They check up on you every day sometimes in person, sometimes by phone.

I suggest that most people will 'get the idea' when a government rep. is directly communicating to them, checking up, answering questions, letting them know the 'real boundaries' aka 'you can't go out for coffee', 'you can't have your family over etc.'

There shouldn't be much of a wait for that kind of thing.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#76

Post by InvertedRhodium »

GekkePrutser wrote: post #8
sh4un wrote: post #4

It's funny because most countries have cautioned people not to leave right now and people just go anyways. No one is shedding tears when you are stuck because you couldn't wait for your budget vacation.

It's not always vacation. Many people have close family abroad that they want you see. Sometimes with medical issues so they may not get another chance. I wouldn't travel if vacation was the only reason. Especially if I were living in NZ which is one of the most beautiful places on earth IMO It's also kinda unfair to expect people to have seen Omikron coming :) with the distance to Europe most people from here in NZ…

> It's not always vacation. Many people have close family abroad that they want you see.

How is that not a vacation?

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#77

Post by throaway46546 »

rafale wrote: post #16
chii wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> deportation isn't this what you'd want? deported back to your country? It's not like you could be denied entry at the airport, and deported back to the foreign country...

Deportation usually comes with long lasting restrictions on travel to the country you are getting kicked from. Hopefully, USCIS/ICE will use their brains in situations like this.

>Hopefully, USCIS/ICE will use their brains in situations like this.

lol

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#80

Post by dwohnitmok »

jollybean wrote: post #75
bener wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You think people would voluntarily isolate from each other without any rules in place?

I don't think everyone would follow the rules, but I don't see that as a limitation to allowing people in. Frankly, being allowed back in your country is probably along the lines of 'human right' and there probably is not any condition in which the government could not allow it. There's plenty of ways to allow for isolation. NZ Climate is actually temperate, they could even have individual military tents with cots an…

> they could even have individual military tents with cots and plastic outhouses, while not exactly luxury, it could accommodate almost anyone, and most people esp. those under 35 wouldn't have a problem.

> They could even do a rapid build of low quality structures i.e. mini-huts, pre-fab style, put them in locations outside the city.

> Though a bit authoritarian, even ankle bracelets could be used in some case maybe for home quarantine.

Though this might be in theory better (after all being allowed in at all is better than be stranded outside), this seems far worse of a PR nightmare. The headlines and accompanying pictures would be atrocious.

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