Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes • Hacker News Board

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#171

Post by jimworm » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 11:29 AM UTC

yardstick wrote: post #163

jimworm wrote: post #159

Even the most expensive MIQ places are incredibly cheap to the average millionaire, NZ$5520 for 14 days for a single adult, which gets cheaper per person when sharing [1]. There are also huge outstanding bills (over NZ$13M) from people that have been through MIQ and haven't paid [2]. Some of the hotels in the MIQ list could be a lot better than others [3]. The solution is to make these investor visa categories pay a…

Isn’t the real solution to disband MIQ? 90% eligible double vaccinated (95% eligible single dose). How long should MIQ exist for? Who should be responsible for paying MIQ dues? I disagree that the traveler should be responsible anymore due to the high vaccination levels. The NZ govt, if it wishes to continue denying kiwis freedom of movement to return home to NZ (or travel to other countries they are citizens of) sho…

If they had put in these proposed charges from the start, it would protect the NZ government from the criticism they're facing.

Ending MIQ is inevitable but it's a one-way decision. Once the virus takes hold there's no going back, even if you take quarantine and isolation to China levels. Nobody likes a lockdown. My opinion is that the right time is when the globally dominant variant is a fast-spreading one with a proven hospitalisation rate post-wave that is lower than what NZ could cope with, given the vaccination rate. Omicron could be a candidate but its wave is still spreading, so it's too early to tell.

As for MIQ dues, the government and therefore the people bear its cost. NZ$13 million isn't a trivial sum, but it isn't huge either, so while any scheme to reduce the burden would be welcome, a plan with a huge potential cost such as ending MIQ is a bit too much risk, especially with Omicron data coming soon on the horizon.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#172

Post by tjpnz » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 11:33 AM UTC

csomar wrote: post #166

tjpnz wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The visa scheme seems to be an enormous benefit to NZ. This scheme was once touted as a way to jump start the NZ tech sector but it doesn't appear to be having any impact. Those getting the visa might only be in the country a few weeks in a year and their investments are going into companies which haven't done anything innovative in decades. The most scathing part of all is that New Zealand's still a terrible place…

Could it be because New Zealand is an agricultural economy that just also happens to be a very good place to live in? There is a market to offering rich people passports. New Zealand is just Vanuatu but with extra-steps.

An agricultural economy where a third of exports go to China. Selling passports won't offset that when geopolitics intervenes. But using those investments to help build out a vibrant tech sector would go further. It may also bring back some of the tech workers the country's been losing.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#173

Post by nowherebeen » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 11:39 AM UTC

sabellito wrote: post #167

nowherebeen wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True. I can only say as a Software Engineer, the tech industry in China is highly unfair from my personal experience. There are a lot of bullying tactics involve for startups that are not invested by Tencent and Alibaba. Startup founders themselves are not much better because they don't give equity to employees. Therefore, all the wealth accumulates to the founder and their investors, while the employees slave away u…

You're saying that since, based on your personal experience, China doesn't play fair, NZ shouldn't be ok with this kind of wealth transfer? What about Russia, is that also your personal experience? Your point about playing fair seems a bit specific. Do you think american and european startups play fair? So in that case american and european tech-millionaires should be allowed to invest in NZ and get a visa?

> What about Russia, is that also your personal experience?

>> As for Russia, I don't know enough to judge them. That, I apologize.

> Do you think american and european startups play fair?

>> I also like to point out, I don't think the West is any better either.

> So in that case american and european tech-millionaires should be allowed to invest in NZ and get a visa?

>> I also want to clarify this point. NZ is not usually on the list for rich Chinese people. They go to Singapore. But it is for rich Americans like Larry Page, Peter Thiel, and a few Silicon Valley execs.

You clearly seemed triggered and have a bone to pick as you didn't read the entirety of my previous comment. It seems like you want to steer this thread into an argument between the East and West, which wasn't the point of my original argument and I have clarified that already. You might want to see a psychiatrist because there is definitely something more going on with you trying to project onto me. Today is Christmas, I wish you a Merry Xmas.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#174

Post by csomar » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 12:16 PM UTC

tjpnz wrote: post #172

csomar wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could it be because New Zealand is an agricultural economy that just also happens to be a very good place to live in? There is a market to offering rich people passports. New Zealand is just Vanuatu but with extra-steps.

An agricultural economy where a third of exports go to China. Selling passports won't offset that when geopolitics intervenes. But using those investments to help build out a vibrant tech sector would go further. It may also bring back some of the tech workers the country's been losing.

I don't really see the path from "selling passports" to "vibrant tech sector". That's something politicians have been selling to you to explain their policies. New Zealand is hostile to anyone not having six figures in their bank account. A vibrant tech sector requires all kind of people, laws, infrastructure, etc... Running a business is messy and running a country which run businesses is also messy and require all kind of work/hustles.

Who needs that when you can sell passports/real estate/ocean views for lots of money and little work involved.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#175

Post by rosndo » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 12:16 PM UTC

lancewiggs wrote: post #44

josephcsible wrote: post #39

Investor visas are just a distraction. The fundamental problem is that there's any restriction whatsoever on New Zealand's citizens entering their own country. The MIQ system should be abolished, and anyone who helped create it, or who has had enough power in the country to abolish it but chose to let it continue, should be put in prison for human rights violations (specifically, in the Universal Declaration of Human…

If we abolished MIQ then Aotearoa NZ would be riddled with COVID, many thousands or tens of thousands would have died, many many more living with chronic conditions and the economy and society crippled. As it happens less than 50 have died, each one a tragedy, while I’ve just had a lovely Christmas with 3 generations, as many others are around the motu. Sure we had to video call relatives in other countries, but thei…

> Our society has decided that nobody should die from COVID. That’s still the right answer.

This is hilarious. Why hasn’t your society decided that nobody should die from obesity? Obesity kills far more people every year than COVID ever will, and would be a far easier problem to solve through legislation.

Why does NZ grant visas to obese people? Why are obese people allowed to go to restaurants or work? If the government made it difficult to be fat, far less people would die.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#176

Post by someotherperson » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 12:20 PM UTC

roca wrote: post #135

josephcsible wrote: post #39

Investor visas are just a distraction. The fundamental problem is that there's any restriction whatsoever on New Zealand's citizens entering their own country. The MIQ system should be abolished, and anyone who helped create it, or who has had enough power in the country to abolish it but chose to let it continue, should be put in prison for human rights violations (specifically, in the Universal Declaration of Human…

The right to return to NZ does not automatically trump all other considerations. Without MIQ we couldn't have executed our elimination strategy. Probably thousands of people would have died of COVID, or we would have had stronger and longer lockdowns --- probably both --- all highly detrimental to the well-being of people living in NZ. So why should the right of return take priority over all that?

That sounds like fanciful thinking.

There is quite literally nothing to suggest that having a higher intake would have created a single additional death or resulted in stronger or longer lockdowns.

New Zealand's own incompetence in not being able to come up with purpose-built facilities to handle overseas arrivals can't be written off with hypotheticals. It has been two years, no more excuses.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#177

Post by janeroe » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 12:44 PM UTC

shawabawa3 wrote: post #145

josephcsible wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes no sense at all. Your life would have been strictly easier if MIQ didn't exist, so why are you grateful for it?

> This makes no sense at all. Your life would have been strictly easier if MIQ didn't exist, so why are you grateful for it? Some people have empathy for others and aren't purely selfish

No creature more brainwashed exists than a kiwi in their natural habitat.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#178

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 1:09 PM UTC

potatochup wrote: post #141

pierre-renaux wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't that just mean that NZ outsourced taking care of the expat NZ nationals that have Covid - and the cost of part of the Covid epidemic - to other countries though? Not allowing your own citizen to return home is something that should be unthinkable really.

To your first point: yes? This seems fairly reasonable as those expats are also paying taxes to their resident countries, not NZ.

[deleted]

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#179

Post by yardstick » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 1:16 PM UTC

roca wrote: post #135

josephcsible wrote: post #39

Investor visas are just a distraction. The fundamental problem is that there's any restriction whatsoever on New Zealand's citizens entering their own country. The MIQ system should be abolished, and anyone who helped create it, or who has had enough power in the country to abolish it but chose to let it continue, should be put in prison for human rights violations (specifically, in the Universal Declaration of Human…

The right to return to NZ does not automatically trump all other considerations. Without MIQ we couldn't have executed our elimination strategy. Probably thousands of people would have died of COVID, or we would have had stronger and longer lockdowns --- probably both --- all highly detrimental to the well-being of people living in NZ. So why should the right of return take priority over all that?

NZ could have added more capacity to MIQ. It could have started working on adding more healthcare resources (it’s been 2 years already, how many new intubators have we added? How many nurses and doctors have we recruited overseas? Or have we just locked the gate and put our hands in our ears?)

NZ has had more than enough time to prepare for COVID in a post elimination world. Why does MIQ still exist?

Why did NZ provide MIQ slots for non essential sports journeys like the Olympics and All Blacks tours. Do you think any Olympian or All Black could look the son or daughter of a dead parent in the eye and say that it was right for their space in MIQ to take precedence over the chance for a loved one to say goodbye for one last time?

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#180

Post by yardstick » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 1:19 PM UTC

roca wrote: post #137

iandanforth wrote: post #61

Wouldn't it be simpler if you could just pay for N additional spots to be opened by your financing? If MIQ spots are limited due to finances and you can solve that problem that seems like a win-win. If there's an indirectness where the finances go somewhere else and the MIQ pie gets smaller for citizens at the same time, that's obviously going to cause outrage. This seems like one of those rare situations where more…

In practice MIQ capacity has been limited by the number of suitable hotels available, and the difficulty of staffing them. These resources are not very elastic.

Taiwan operates an effective home quarantine system (and 850 deaths for a 23m population). Why couldn’t NZ? There would be a lot more capacity that way.