Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes • Hacker News Board

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#141

Post by potatochup » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 9:45 AM UTC

pierre-renaux wrote: post #83

lancewiggs wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we abolished MIQ then Aotearoa NZ would be riddled with COVID, many thousands or tens of thousands would have died, many many more living with chronic conditions and the economy and society crippled. As it happens less than 50 have died, each one a tragedy, while I’ve just had a lovely Christmas with 3 generations, as many others are around the motu. Sure we had to video call relatives in other countries, but thei…

Doesn't that just mean that NZ outsourced taking care of the expat NZ nationals that have Covid - and the cost of part of the Covid epidemic - to other countries though? Not allowing your own citizen to return home is something that should be unthinkable really.

To your first point: yes? This seems fairly reasonable as those expats are also paying taxes to their resident countries, not NZ.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#142

Post by sabellito » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 9:57 AM UTC

nowherebeen wrote: post #99

bobthepanda wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My understanding of these schemes is that they are generally designed for rich people who accumulated wealth in countries where they might like to have a backup option if their government gets in a particularly seize-y mood. (e.g. China or Russia)

Aren’t most rich residents in NZ from the UK and US? That was my impression. The middle class are usually Chinese. But regardless, rich people in China and Russia don’t accumulate wealth simply by playing fair. Is NZ okay with this kind of wealth transfer to their country knowing this? (Well we all know the answer honestly)

> rich people in China and Russia don’t accumulate wealth simply by playing fair

When you say it like that, creating a contrast between "east and west" and dishonest/criminal behaviour, it sounds a bit racist. Perhaps you'd like to expand on that point?

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#143

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 9:59 AM UTC

aunty_helen wrote: post #46

tuatoru wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In New Zealand we try to have something called the Rule of Law. The same laws and regulations apply to everyone regardless of wealth or political connection. The rule of law is the key innovation that allowed the industrial revolution to take place bringing the West to its present rich and free lifestyle. Adherence to the rule of law is a major reason why NZ is regularly in the top 5 countries globally for lack of co…

Honestly, the entire MIQ program is a gross violation of the bill of rights and several international treaties. So I don't think the rule of law goes very far in NZ as they seem to just handwave it away and most people in NZ couldn't care less because of the fear they have from living reasonably isolated for the past year and a half. NZers should expect to be on the hook for at least a few class action lawsuits for d…

[deleted]

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#144

Post by janeroe » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 10:03 AM UTC

tuatoru wrote: post #17

parkingrift wrote: post #10

>Immigration New Zealand (INZ) recently granted 32 visas to people who pledged to invest at least $10m locally over three years and another 76 visas to individuals pledging to invest at least $3m, according to the news website Stuff. > With their visas in hand, investors may apply to compete for spots in New Zealand’s congested MIQ system. A stay in MIQ is a prerequisite for entry to the country, which has been large…

In New Zealand we try to have something called the Rule of Law. The same laws and regulations apply to everyone regardless of wealth or political connection. The rule of law is the key innovation that allowed the industrial revolution to take place bringing the West to its present rich and free lifestyle. Adherence to the rule of law is a major reason why NZ is regularly in the top 5 countries globally for lack of co…

> In New Zealand we try to have something called the Rule of Law.

> From this distance the US appears to be well down that road.

And yet you're the ones who are locked.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#145

Post by shawabawa3 » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 10:06 AM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #118

pikelet wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cross the line? As a kiwi who got stuck in Peru for over 6 months due to the border closure and lack of flights, and had to go through MIQ when I was finally able to return, I'm extremely grateful for the MIQ system. Do I think it could have been handled better? Yes, especially recently as the answer to a lack of MIQ spaces shouldn't have been to make a lottery system it should have been to make more spaces; but over…

This makes no sense at all. Your life would have been strictly easier if MIQ didn't exist, so why are you grateful for it?

> This makes no sense at all. Your life would have been strictly easier if MIQ didn't exist, so why are you grateful for it?

Some people have empathy for others and aren't purely selfish

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#146

Post by jimjimjim » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 10:08 AM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #39

Investor visas are just a distraction. The fundamental problem is that there's any restriction whatsoever on New Zealand's citizens entering their own country. The MIQ system should be abolished, and anyone who helped create it, or who has had enough power in the country to abolish it but chose to let it continue, should be put in prison for human rights violations (specifically, in the Universal Declaration of Human…

and do what, have a nice big ole covid party? why?

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#147

Post by tchalla » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 10:09 AM UTC

ilrwbwrkhv wrote: post #12

In almost all countries you can buy citizenship if you're rich. You don't even need to know the language. Immigration and all these gimmicks are for peasants only.

> In almost all countries you can buy citizenship if you're rich.

I don't think you can buy citizenship in most Central/Western European countries. You may be able to buy residence status but not citizenship.

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#148

Post by yardstick » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 10:14 AM UTC

tjpnz wrote: post #114

parkingrift wrote: post #10

>Immigration New Zealand (INZ) recently granted 32 visas to people who pledged to invest at least $10m locally over three years and another 76 visas to individuals pledging to invest at least $3m, according to the news website Stuff. > With their visas in hand, investors may apply to compete for spots in New Zealand’s congested MIQ system. A stay in MIQ is a prerequisite for entry to the country, which has been large…

>The visa scheme seems to be an enormous benefit to NZ. This scheme was once touted as a way to jump start the NZ tech sector but it doesn't appear to be having any impact. Those getting the visa might only be in the country a few weeks in a year and their investments are going into companies which haven't done anything innovative in decades. The most scathing part of all is that New Zealand's still a terrible place…

While NZ’s lack of capital gains tax should make it enticing, the terrible overseas investment policies/taxes make it less appealing to multi-national companies and investors.

To those outside NZ: owning shares in non-NZ companies typically means a 5% yearly wealth tax if the shares don’t pay dividends (Ie most tech companies that are share price growth driven).

See https://www.ird.govt.nz/income-tax/income-tax-for-businesses...

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#149

Post by jimjimjim » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 10:17 AM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #47

lancewiggs wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we abolished MIQ then Aotearoa NZ would be riddled with COVID, many thousands or tens of thousands would have died, many many more living with chronic conditions and the economy and society crippled. As it happens less than 50 have died, each one a tragedy, while I’ve just had a lovely Christmas with 3 generations, as many others are around the motu. Sure we had to video call relatives in other countries, but thei…

Do you think MIQ will stop community spread in New Zealand forever? If not, then all of those bad things will happen anyway, but by not abolishing MIQ, all of the bad things it causes will happen too. And if everyone were locked in an isolated room from birth, nobody would ever die of any contagious disease, but clearly that's not the right answer.

why do people always extrapolate everything to extremes? No one is forbidden from going to new zealand. You just have to queue. And ffs MIQ has SLOWED the spread. for instance no omicron in nz so there is time to study/research and raises vaccination levels to WHEN it gets in there will be less damage.

why do things have to be never/forever? Why can't people think in terms of better/worse/later?

Re: Locked-out New Zealanders outraged as visa scheme for rich foreigners resumes

#150

Post by throwaway55421 » Sat, Dec 25, 2021, 10:19 AM UTC

atweiden wrote: post #74

jordansmithnz wrote: post #29

New Zealander here. My wife and I just made it through the MIQ system in time to see our families for Christmas (and introduce our son to his grandparents for the first time). A few interesting things: - we had to enter the MIQ lottery five times before ‘winning’ a spot. The lottery system is the same used by some shoe drops and ticket reservations, and there is no weighting given to citizens that have enrolled in pr…

> Now that we’re years into COVID and vaccines are readily available, it’s extremely frustrating for New Zealanders with family or loved ones overseas. Public opinion is steadily shifting towards ‘open up the country’, and the government has announced some tentative dates for doing this (although they were recently shifted back due to omicron). As someone who was in a Covid-free region of Australia all throughout the…

Mask mandates are a political choice, though.

The UK was doing well throughout all of Summer and we've only now had a bit of an Omicron scare due to people not wanting to self isolate over Christmas.

Most people aren't that bothered about corona, they respond to legal threats and marketing.