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Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

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Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#391

Post by skinkestek »

aa-jv wrote: post #388
skinkestek wrote: post #372

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously: > Europeans don't hate Russians as much as Americans do - I seriously doubt Americans really hates Russia, and at least not more than any eastern country who has been crushed by USSR for some decades. > probably because they've actually got Russians visiting and know that Russia doesn't really represent the threat that the American military-industrial complex needs you to believe is real in order to justif…

>it is the West who creates this situation. It is the West that creates this situation: https://www.geoawesomeness.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Ri... >Britains deal with Hitler. A deal with Russia These are not equivalent by any stretch. Putin is not Hitler.

> https://www.geoawesomeness.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Ri...

What am I supposed to read out of this that supports your argument?

> These are not equivalent by any stretch. Putin is not Hitler.

Absolutely true.

Sadly it seems that one similarity is that both of them - and others as well - didn't/doesn't respect treaties, agreements or what I think of as basic expectations of decency.

For this reason I voice my clear support for Nato - as long as we don't overstep our boundaries like we did in Afghanistan. This includes sending troops to the borders og our friends in the alliance. As long as they don't cross the border this is fair game.

Russias problem isn't only that they exercise on the Ukrainian border, but also that they have a history of:

- sending advanced gear to troublemakers in east Ukraine who choose violence over democratic participation.

- sending troops.

- has a history of not only meddling like USA (I don't like this either) but also occupying.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#392

Post by emptysongglass »

xtracto wrote: post #291
georgecmu wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a much more evenhanded -- and hence rare -- take, you may wish to read this very recent commentary from Jack Matlock, the last US Ambassador to the USSR[1]. He has the advantage of being an observer who is (a) very informed and (b) disinterested. The following paragraphs are worth reading, even if you fundamentally disagree with this viewpoint[2]. Russia is extremely sensitive about foreign military activity adja…

Great read thank you. As someone completely disinterested in any of the affected parties, it sometimes gets annoying how loud is the "pro-American" / "Anti Russian" propaganda in the internet. It's always "America is good, Russia/China/Whoever else is bad" as if the USA was full of saints. Truth is, every country and government is willing to protect their interests, and it has been historically proved that the USA is…

> It's always "America is good, Russia/China/Whoever else is bad" as if the USA was full of saints.

The world is not some grand scale intended to be balanced. No one argues the USA is full of saints. Whether the USA is full of saints or not is immaterial to Russia/China being "bad". The truth is, a world Order led by the United States looks a lot kinder than a world led by Russian or Chinese regimes. Resorting to false equivalences (guys, they're all bad) in fact hurts all of us interested in a world that respects basic human freedoms.

I've stated this before, as have many others on this site: the US and the knowledge of its genocides and other violent acts committed on people across the world is only possible when a free press is guaranteed and when we do not need to worry about being whisked away into that eternal night for bringing those atrocities to light. You cannot discuss the Tienanmen Square massacres in China without severe reprisals. Indeed, in Russia, doctors have simply repeatedly fallen out of windows for daring to toe the official line on COVID. It's happened so frequently, it's become something of a meme.

So please, criticize the US all you want (and there's much to criticize) but stop at drawing these false equivalencies because it is easy or because you believe in some global scale that must be equalized.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#393

Post by trasz »

torstenvl wrote: post #364
mempko wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The U.S. also takes it seriously when whistle blowers and journalists leak a story that tells the opposite. Torturing Chelsea Manning and going after Julian Assange for example. The million excess deaths from the wars is very realistic and plausible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

Chelsea Manning wasn't tortured. The USG even paid for her gender reassignment surgery, and she was released early from her sentence. No reasonable person can call that torture. The claim isn't "there were a million excess deaths in a multiparty conflict," the claim is that the U.S. killed a million people. The vast majority of civilian killings were by ISIS and Shia militias.

Those “excess deaths” wouldn’t happen if the US hadn’t invaded Middle East. Thus, it’s US fault.

Generally speaking, calling US victims “excess deaths” tells something about American state of mind, though.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#394

Post by trasz »

torstenvl wrote: post #362
trasz wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some estimates indicate million killed in Iraq alone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORB_survey_of_Iraq_War_casualt... . Apart from Afghanistan, you'd also need to add civilian victims of US sanctions. The fact that US uses lawyers "to ensure the law of armed conflict is followed" does not mean they care about civilians; it means they care about being sued in case they killed someone whose family can afford lawyers.

A country cannot be sued for causing a civilian death in war. Your speculation about motivations has no basis in reality. Additionally, the link you posted about deaths in Iraq does not say what you think it says.

Individual soldiers can, and US is very protective about its war criminals (see Iran Air 655).

Almost every country cares about civilians more the US: by not waging wars.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#395

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

chalcolithic wrote: post #318
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But is Russia a warmongering nation? I'd say most Russians hate war. Maybe more than anyone else because they were the nation that suffered most casualties in World War II. An emergence of a peaceful leader and friendly reactions with the West would mark the beginning of a completely new era in the history of our civilization. And would help both Russia and the West in the face of increasing Chinese power.

We're lucky to live in time when figuring out what foreigners think is just a few clicks away, thanks to the internet and Google Translate. Please try to do it - even if you won't like what you see at first you can surely find some other sources that will confirm your view.

Well, that really depends on what kind of site you visit. I'm sometimes shocked seeing what comments my compatriots write under some articles. People tend to group around certain topics. So in order to understand what "Russians in general" think I'd have to survey many of them. For now, I rely on the opinion of my Russian friends.

Basically, nobody in their right minds want a war. In order to create favorable conditions for war, you need to create quite a few provocations, a lot of tensions, some murders, especially on children. At some point, people on the other side will get very emotional and demand a revenge. At that point you reached your aim: you changed the collective mind of the population and they crave for war now, they want "justice." This happened to a small degree in the USA after 9/11 - Bush did have some internal support although it was by no means unequivocal. I saw the same in the initial stages of the conflict in the former Yugoslavia: at some point people really hated each other.

But it is very, very far from it in Ukraine. There are many, many Russians in Ukraine, and many Ukrainians in Russia. In many parts of the country they speak Russians (I mean almost exclusively). Putin is trying some provocations and is also getting soldiers from distant areas of Russia so that they have less problems killing Ukrainians, but the spirit of "let's invade Ukraine" is just not there among Russians.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#396

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

bee_rider wrote: post #370
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paradoxically, the USA seems more active in the current conflict over Ukraine than the rest of the EU. And it was Germany who blocked the delivery of NATO weapons to Ukraine.

I don't think that's paradoxical at all. This is right in the EU's backyard. If it were to heat up they'd actually have to deal with things like refugees and the possibility of war spreading to their members. They probably also want to be very explicit about their (lack of) obligations in this case, I mean people are already acting as if this calls into question how steadfast they'll be in defense of eastern EU membe…

We have two options. First, Putin is bluffing. This is what most people believe (and hope). In this case giving Ukraine more weapons won't hurt anyone. Option two is that he is really planning some offensive action this winter. In this case sending weapons to Ukraine could help in slowing the Russians down. It could also help in decimating their army - if they unmask as a ruthless aggressor, it is in the interest of the whole civilization, not just the EU, to limit their impact.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#397

Post by hdjjhhvvhga »

jacquesm wrote: post #289
hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I completely agree about hearts and minds, but this is not how NATO works. When the USA asked their partners to help them in the invasion of Afghanistan, Iraq etc., nobody asked about hearts and minds. Many f not most people in the EU were against the war. There were demonstrations in most capitals[0]. But everybody sent their troops even if they didn't care about the war, because this is how NATO works in practice.…

I'm quite concerned that this is a one way street. The United States is the first to lean on other countries to support them in their adventures but I somewhat doubt if the Baltics were in need that the US (for instance: under Biden or god forbid another run of Trump) would step in. They just pulled out of Afghanistan, a mess of their own making, without any consideration for the consequences.

For sure it won't be easy, because it would be the first time NATO would have to engage in a conventional war with a country with nukes. That's the whole point Russia counts on: that the nukes will scare NATO partners away. But this would be a suicidal move that would make no sense. And in a conventional war Russia stands no chances against the armies of NATO.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#398

Post by varjag »

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #381
varjag wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People often have no appreciation of scale. Russia has more armor than NATO has Javelins and loitering munitions.

And yet Finns, spectacularily outnumbered, held off Russian invasion anyway with machine guns and German drugs.

FSVO held off. All Finnish territory claimed by USSR at the beginning of the conflict was in the end annexed and remains so to this day.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#399

Post by batushka3 »

georgecmu wrote: post #333
batushka3 wrote: post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Gorbachev had been assured in 1990 that the alliance would not expand It's a myth perpetuated by Russia

Just to be clear, you are dismissing the words of the guy who actually was in the room when some of these assurances were given. You may find the accounts from two Ambassadors presented in this write-up interesting: https://transatlanticrelations.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/1... Here's the direct quote from Ambassador Braithwaite's letter. Braithwaite was UK’s Ambassador to the Soviet Union and Russia until 1992. The…

I repeat, it's a myth, started to be perpetuated since putin https://www.chathamhouse.org/2021/05/myths-and-misconception...

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#400

Post by lambdadmitry »

ivan_gammel wrote: post #65
baud147258 wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For joining NATO, isn't there also a requirement on territorial integrity which makes Ukraine joining impossible as long as the Donbass situation persists?

Donbass is a diversion of attention from Crimea. It will eventually settle and return back to Ukraine, as more and more countries recognize Crimea as part of Russia. It is hard to imagine Ukraine giving up on Crimea (though it would make a lot of sense by now), so it will never join NATO and it is very unlikely that they will join EU despite promises of local politicians.

I doubt it will ever settle. See: Abkhazia and South Osetia. Russia has a history of creating frozen conflicts to make life painful for its neighbours
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