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Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

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Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#361

Post by bee_rider »

throw1234651234 wrote: post #352
bee_rider wrote: post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was wondering where you getting these quotes from, but I managed to find some of them in the Budapest Memorandum Wikipedia page. The provide a helpful list of the obligations as well: -- 1) Respect Belarusian, Kazakh and Ukrainian independence and sovereignty in the existing borders.[16] 2) Refrain from the threat or the use of force against Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine. 3) Refrain from using economic pressure o…

I have to admit - I trusted sources saying the US promised to defend Ukraine as part of these agreements, which is nowhere in this list. Thanks for posting the actual wording.

Thanks, sorry for the initial comment which is in retrospect quite cryptic, haha.

I should be clear, this is the Wikipedia summary. The actual wording seems pretty similar (although it is a bit wordier).

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#362

Post by torstenvl »

trasz wrote: post #317
torstenvl wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False statements don't help public discussion. It is not true that the U.S. killed a million people in the Middle East. And this is not some sophistic semantic argument either, as it remains not true when you include Afghanistan. The number of civilian casualties is not even close. It is also not true that the U.S. doesn't care about civilian casualties. The U.S., U.K., and Australia are the only countries I know tha…

Some estimates indicate million killed in Iraq alone: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORB_survey_of_Iraq_War_casualt... . Apart from Afghanistan, you'd also need to add civilian victims of US sanctions. The fact that US uses lawyers "to ensure the law of armed conflict is followed" does not mean they care about civilians; it means they care about being sued in case they killed someone whose family can afford lawyers.

A country cannot be sued for causing a civilian death in war. Your speculation about motivations has no basis in reality.

Additionally, the link you posted about deaths in Iraq does not say what you think it says.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#363

Post by Mountain_Skies »

skissane wrote: post #259
lnsru wrote: post #27

There is only way for country’s protection and it’s Israel’s way where whole country is also an army. Especially for countries near unfriendly countries like Russia in this submission. Because all the treaties and documents signed by politicians are absolutely worthless. Ukraine got rid of all the Soviet nuclear weapons and got lots of promises: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Secur... Now they…

> There is only way for country’s protection and it’s Israel’s way where whole country is also an army. Significant chunks of the Israeli population are de facto exempted from conscription (and with a low rate of voluntary enlistment from those communities as well)-most Haredi Jews, and most Israeli Arabs. Those two minorities together make up over 30% of Israeli citizens, and both minorities have an above average po…

There's also the issue that many in that 30% don't have the same outlook on the form or even existence of the Israeli state. In a conflict, they can become a problem from within. Many western countries likewise face a similar internal demographic structure that's ready to fracture the state and act against it for their own perceived benefit. Probably every large state has this to some extent but some are in denial while others already have systems of control in place to account for it.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#364

Post by torstenvl »

mempko wrote: post #330
torstenvl wrote: post #208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

False statements don't help public discussion. It is not true that the U.S. killed a million people in the Middle East. And this is not some sophistic semantic argument either, as it remains not true when you include Afghanistan. The number of civilian casualties is not even close. It is also not true that the U.S. doesn't care about civilian casualties. The U.S., U.K., and Australia are the only countries I know tha…

The U.S. also takes it seriously when whistle blowers and journalists leak a story that tells the opposite. Torturing Chelsea Manning and going after Julian Assange for example. The million excess deaths from the wars is very realistic and plausible. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War

Chelsea Manning wasn't tortured. The USG even paid for her gender reassignment surgery, and she was released early from her sentence. No reasonable person can call that torture.

The claim isn't "there were a million excess deaths in a multiparty conflict," the claim is that the U.S. killed a million people. The vast majority of civilian killings were by ISIS and Shia militias.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#365

Post by belter »

lnsru wrote: post #27

There is only way for country’s protection and it’s Israel’s way where whole country is also an army. Especially for countries near unfriendly countries like Russia in this submission. Because all the treaties and documents signed by politicians are absolutely worthless. Ukraine got rid of all the Soviet nuclear weapons and got lots of promises: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_Memorandum_on_Secur... Now they…

I think people are not thinking this through well enough. Realize the Russians are willing to go to war over this.

In no way would cross my mind to justify Russian actions, a regime I absolutely abhor. But maybe would be a good moment to not forget about the 40 years of strategic agreements, that supported peace in the last few years, and ask why these are being disturbed.

Or are we to ignore the CIA operations in Ukraine of the last few years:

"Leaked audio reveals embarrassing U.S. exchange on Ukraine, EU" https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-ukraine-tape-idUSBREA...

What would be the reaction of the US if Russian forces would deploy to the other side of their border? Lets says Canada or Mexico? Because that is what would happen in Ukraine would join NATO. We know what happened when they tried Cuba.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#366

Post by Mikeb85 »

This source is pretty shit and doesn't really prove anything.

That being said, Ukraine just flexes during it's traditional winter gas-price feud with Russia to try negotiate a better price. It doesn't really want Donbass nor Crimea back; those regions always were too pro-Russian. Without them, Ukraine's politics have shifted much further west. But Ukraine needs to remind the west of the Russia boogeyman to get resources from the EU, while threatening Russia to get concessions from them.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#367

Post by bananabernhard »

aa-jv wrote: post #268
drran wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you name these countries, please?

Germans would like to have their country back and kick NATO out. Serbians, Hungarians, Slovakians, Czechians, Slovenians .. even my colleagues in Kosovo are sick of Americas' shit. The reason is, they don't live behind an iron curtain of censorship of America's crimes against humanity, as most Americans/Western Europeans do.

[citation needed]

There are two major parties in Germany who oppose NATO membership: The far-right AfD and the left to far-left Linke. They have less than 20% of the national vote together. In 2019 there were 54% of Germans in favor of the NATO membership and 13% opposed it. [1]

Can't talk for the other countries, but given that you have no sources other than "I heard someone say that", I'm not inclined to believe it.

[1] https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.net/r/52/YouGov%20Eurotrac...

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#368

Post by Mountain_Skies »

plandis wrote: post #344
aa-jv wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europeans don't hate Russians as much as Americans do - probably because they've actually got Russians visiting and know that Russia doesn't really represent the threat that the American military-industrial complex needs you to believe is real in order to justify their trillion dollar misadventures and further subjugation of NATO member states into puppetry. In fact, a lot of Europeans would like to see peace made wi…

I really doubt Americans in general dislike the Russian people. If Americans have an issue with Russia it’s with the government at large or specifically Putin and the oligarchs.

I doubt more than a single digit percentage of people in the US could name even one Russian oligarch. Outside of the DC bubble and media pot stirring, Russian "hate" is mostly limited to it being used as a generic boogieman when something politically unappealing to the observer happens.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#369

Post by bitcharmer »

throw1234651234 wrote: post #132
bitcharmer wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since when does Ukraine have nukes? They gave it up for empty promises from the west, no?

They gave them up for empty promises from Russia and the West*. I like how you conveniently "forgot" that Russia signed that too. "The memorandum was originally signed by three nuclear powers: the Russian Federation, the United Kingdom, and the United States. China and France gave somewhat weaker individual assurances in separate documents. The memorandum included security assurances against threats or use of force a…

> I like how you conveniently "forgot" that Russia signed that too

I'm a Pole living in the west and the perspective of Putin's greedy gaze turning so close to my motherland is quite terrifying. I think your conclusion that I somehow "conveniently" forgot about Russia being the culprit here is a bit too far fetched here.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#370

Post by bee_rider »

hdjjhhvvhga wrote: post #93
rpadovani wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Will NATO come for let’s say Latvia or Lithuania? I don't know about NATO, but I strongly hope that EU defends its territory integrity. And I am not sure Russia wants to find out either…

Paradoxically, the USA seems more active in the current conflict over Ukraine than the rest of the EU. And it was Germany who blocked the delivery of NATO weapons to Ukraine.

I don't think that's paradoxical at all.

This is right in the EU's backyard. If it were to heat up they'd actually have to deal with things like refugees and the possibility of war spreading to their members. They probably also want to be very explicit about their (lack of) obligations in this case, I mean people are already acting as if this calls into question how steadfast they'll be in defense of eastern EU members.

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