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Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

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11–20 of 428 posts

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#11

Putin justifies his clumsy adventurism by attempting to paint his enemies as fascists. The rise of the extreme right in the west provides significant political cover for Putin, and should probably be assumed to be a tool of his hybrid warfare strategy.

> attempting to paint his enemies as fascists.

Ukraine makes this easy for him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#12
post #9

I think we in the west need something like a 'doctrine of the foregone conclusion'. Often things are very obvious, even notorious, but because we do not want to face the eventuality, we do things like negotiate or perseverate our denials all while the situation escalates. If NATO and the west are ready and willing to defend Ukraine (I suspect we are not), in which case a significant increase in our own presence would…

I suspect Ukraine was told quite clearly what they can expect, and as you say, it comes short of NATO boots on the ground, or wings in the sky.

I'd say no one ever really wants to defend an ally, it's more of a pros-and-cons balance. For smaller countries, solidarity within NATO is building goodwill capital for when they need help (e.g. with allies following US into Afghanistan). For large countries, this is part of their empire-building: showing allies you support them makes them more favourably disposed to you. All-around, even for the US, it raises the bar for anyone contemplating an attack on a NATO member.

Ukraine is a colleague but not an ally, so these don't really apply as much.

That said, the West wants an independent, pro-western Ukraine (just not enough to fight a direct war with Russia over), and seems unusually resolute, so I wouldn't be surprised if some truly punitive actions were to be taken. Exclusion from SWIFT was one proposal, interfering with Russian energy exports would be catastrophic for Russia. The latter is very difficult for Europe in winter, but who knows; the US could open the tap with their gas, also if the whole thing gets delayed by a few months, it could be a very different perspective.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#13
post #9

I think we in the west need something like a 'doctrine of the foregone conclusion'. Often things are very obvious, even notorious, but because we do not want to face the eventuality, we do things like negotiate or perseverate our denials all while the situation escalates. If NATO and the west are ready and willing to defend Ukraine (I suspect we are not), in which case a significant increase in our own presence would…

I think this information and clarity exists and is private in the countries' domains of external affairs. Publicly there is always a facade that needs to be held. I am sure some smart people can prove that it's very hard or impossible for any reasonably sized society to function with complete transparency.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#14

Putin justifies his clumsy adventurism by attempting to paint his enemies as fascists. The rise of the extreme right in the west provides significant political cover for Putin, and should probably be assumed to be a tool of his hybrid warfare strategy.

By painting your domestic voices of dissent as "Russian Assets" you're the closest thing next to an actual Russian Asset

They stop being mere 'domestic voices of dissent' once they start threatening my family.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#15

Putin justifies his clumsy adventurism by attempting to paint his enemies as fascists. The rise of the extreme right in the west provides significant political cover for Putin, and should probably be assumed to be a tool of his hybrid warfare strategy.

> attempting to paint his enemies as fascists. Ukraine makes this easy for him. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azov_Battalion

Clearly pretty vile, indefensible stuff, and yet it's Putin who is waging war against us.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#16
post #9

I think we in the west need something like a 'doctrine of the foregone conclusion'. Often things are very obvious, even notorious, but because we do not want to face the eventuality, we do things like negotiate or perseverate our denials all while the situation escalates. If NATO and the west are ready and willing to defend Ukraine (I suspect we are not), in which case a significant increase in our own presence would…

The west will not protect Ukraine for two giant reasons.

1. Russia has gas over Germany.

2. Amassing troops on Russia's boarder without an alliance with Ukraine is politically challenging.

3. America is sick of war and doesn't have a good looking balance sheet.

4. China is the new meta. Taiwan is tough enough.

5. Joining Nato is a process starts with have a certain level of democratic freedom and market economy that Ukraine is in the process of attaining. If we defend them right now, then it undermines the reforms we want them to make before joining. Once they're in, they're our problem.

6. Covid and knock-on effects is still the focus.

Doesn't mean I love it, but it's the reality. Personally I'd do things differently, but I don't exactly have presidential intelligence reports now do I?

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#17
post #9

I think we in the west need something like a 'doctrine of the foregone conclusion'. Often things are very obvious, even notorious, but because we do not want to face the eventuality, we do things like negotiate or perseverate our denials all while the situation escalates. If NATO and the west are ready and willing to defend Ukraine (I suspect we are not), in which case a significant increase in our own presence would…

I suspect Ukraine was told quite clearly what they can expect, and as you say, it comes short of NATO boots on the ground, or wings in the sky. I'd say no one ever really wants to defend an ally, it's more of a pros-and-cons balance. For smaller countries, solidarity within NATO is building goodwill capital for when they need help (e.g. with allies following US into Afghanistan). For large countries, this is part of…

> The latter is very difficult for Europe in winter

The latter is very difficult for Germany in winter.

Let's call a spade a spade and stop bundling the EU27 with Germany's energy policy and geo-political failures.

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#19
post #9

I think we in the west need something like a 'doctrine of the foregone conclusion'. Often things are very obvious, even notorious, but because we do not want to face the eventuality, we do things like negotiate or perseverate our denials all while the situation escalates. If NATO and the west are ready and willing to defend Ukraine (I suspect we are not), in which case a significant increase in our own presence would…

The west will not protect Ukraine for two giant reasons. 1. Russia has gas over Germany. 2. Amassing troops on Russia's boarder without an alliance with Ukraine is politically challenging. 3. America is sick of war and doesn't have a good looking balance sheet. 4. China is the new meta. Taiwan is tough enough. 5. Joining Nato is a process starts with have a certain level of democratic freedom and market economy that…

For joining NATO, isn't there also a requirement on territorial integrity which makes Ukraine joining impossible as long as the Donbass situation persists?

Re: Russian court accidentally confirmed Russian military presence in Ukraine

#20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I suspect Ukraine was told quite clearly what they can expect, and as you say, it comes short of NATO boots on the ground, or wings in the sky. I'd say no one ever really wants to defend an ally, it's more of a pros-and-cons balance. For smaller countries, solidarity within NATO is building goodwill capital for when they need help (e.g. with allies following US into Afghanistan). For large countries, this is part of…

> The latter is very difficult for Europe in winter The latter is very difficult for Germany in winter. Let's call a spade a spade and stop bundling the EU27 with Germany's energy policy and geo-political failures.

There's plenty of countries heavily dependent on Russian gas, Germany being one.

I get it, from Spain it looks very different, but this list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia_in_the_European_energy_... shows how many countries depend on Russian gas.

This should have been scary to Europe for at least a decade now, but sadly wasn't.

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