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Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

economist.com

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Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#181

Post by fourtrees »

forgotmyoldname wrote: post #107
csallen wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic? Why is it a bad thing that so many people are so wealthy? The more people who belong to the so-wealthy-it's-hard-to-achieve group, the better.

I mean, wars were fought over that and revolutions had. People decidedly did not like royalty, large so-wealthy-it's-hard-to-achieve groups, being so far above them. For a while, people much preferred knowing they could work hard or smart and make progress from the bottom to the top 20%. We're talking about the top 20% here. Not the top 0.1%.

This is one of my big take-aways from the article. My great-(great?-)-grandparents from Eastern Europe armed with nothing but excellent numeracy, some English, and the clothes on their backs. They could reliably expect to enter move out of post-immigration poverty based on skills cultivated for the purpose of success in the US. My great-x-grandfather ended up a bank manager. And they passed money and knowledge along to their children, insuring as best they could that their progress wouldn't be lost, and it wasn't. You've heard this story a thousand times, and I'd bet it happened tens of thousands of times.

But that sort of outcome seems almost impossible in America today due to more factors than I could probably name especially at this hour. But it seems clear to me that America has changed in the last 120-100 years in a way that locks people into their social classes/'earnings quintiles' while perpetuating, I assume to the advantage of the very wealthy, the myth that that old America of extreme social mobility still exists. This is a myth that needs to die if we're to adequately address our problems as a nation. I suspect the solution begins in the education industry.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#182

Post by thoraway66 »

csallen wrote: post #111
inetknght wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it a bad thing that so many people are that wealthy? In the USA's case: for every one person who is that wealthy there are dozens of people struggling to put food on the table.

12% of Americans struggle from food insecurity. By definition, 20% of Americans are in the top quintile. I'm with you, I want that first number to be as close to 0% as possible. But it's mathematically untrue that there are dozens of Americans starving for every American in the top 20%. In fact, there are barely half as many.

This is a snapshot of now.

Where are we going with the money thing?

If the goal is everyone have money to access stuff (get to 0%)… why money?

Just provide stuff?

Socially make the story “this is how acquisition of stuff works and what stuff is available.”

Like we do now. Just minus the money.

Everyone lives under a quota for stuff given how much money they have.

What’s with the arbitrary data structure (dollar) and old man algorithms for dividing it up?

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#183

Post by inetknght »

rank0 wrote: post #157
inetknght wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I count myself to be lucky in the top 20% of earners in America and have friends who also fit in the range. I've met a lot of people who struggle to put food on the table whose income is in the middle 50%. A lot of them have the same complaint: they don't qualify for help because they make too much . But they also struggle to pay their bills because they don't make enough. I don't know where you think 12% of American…

I mean just think for a second. There is a maximum for 4 people for every person in the top 20%. It literally cannot be “dozens” even if the entire bottom 80% was struggling for food.

Yes, in the same way that the average energy density in the universe is zero, sure. But there's parts of the country where the local averages are much more skewed relative to the rest of the country.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#184

Post by VWWHFSfQ »

vmception wrote: post #103
twobitshifter wrote: post #95

I think the first step is to admit we have a problem. People don’t like the United States being labeled as anything less than exceptional. If you look at the Amazon workers, Uber drivers, door dashers, etc in this country it’s amazing how hard people can work and not get ahead. 2nd and 3rd jobs can be necessary to just make ends meet. The story that hard work is all it takes in America does need to be questioned.

Talk with any patriotic person and you'll quickly notice that American exceptionalism relies on comparing the United States to the worst countries in the world and ignoring the existence of other developed nations. Eventually followed by "well at least we can talk about it, unlike " and so therefore all indiscretions must be absolved and ignorable since we have the "unique" ability to criticize the government at all,…

> and ignoring the existence of other developed nations

I mean, Germany and France literally criminalized name-calling and teasing on the internet. They actively compel social media websites to delete posts and comments that make fun of people, or make them feel bad.

USA doesn't exactly have the highest moral ground, but it has some higher moral ground for sure. So what exactly is USA supposed to learn from these other developed nations?

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#185

Post by WalterBright »

rpmisms wrote: post #23

Social mobility is very different than economic mobility. It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. Heck, I did it without any college. Social mobility is a different story. I was raised in a rural area, which is essentially a social class of its own. Since becoming an adult, I've found myself gravitating towards working-class people. I like the blu…

> I like the bluntness, the awareness of real issues, and the family values

I'm sure that working class people are more aware of issues that affect them. I'm also sure the same applies to poor, middle class, and wealthy people.

They're all real issues.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#186

Post by saalweachter »

chrisseaton wrote: post #99
redelbee wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to the 2020 census data linked below the percentage increases to around 24% for individuals who worked full time all year. I don’t think there is any easy way to find the more specific groups you mentioned. That’s not a large enough increase to consider making six figures as easy as “prioritizing” it or whatever you’re proposing. https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/cps/tables/pinc-01/... In any case wh…

I think you've just proved yourself that making 100k is extremely achievable in the US (1/4) for someone who even just bothers to turn up full-time.

Keep in mind the "underemployment rate" -- the people who want to be working more but can't find a job that will let them -- is something like 12%.

Being willing to show up full time is necessary but not sufficient.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#187

Post by BLKNSLVR »

Mountain_Skies wrote: post #166
BLKNSLVR wrote: post #110

The overestimation of social mobility is what explains the people at the bottom voting for governments that promote policies like trickle-down economics that only ever benefit the people at the top. This is my experience in Australia, which isn't as far along in the progression towards uber-capitalism as the US.

Voting is a package deal and it's quite obvious that westerners outside of the US have close to zero understanding of cultural issues, especially abortion. They'll whine about it but they never understand that for quite a large segment of the group they keep calling stupid, abortion is the wholesale slaughter of millions of babies year after year. This is not a shallow belief. It is deeply held for these people. If y…

My comment is in direct relation to a handful of people (data points) I've had conversations with who've specifically chosen based on this as a primary issue - both voting _for_ one party touting said trickle-down, and _against_ a party offering an alternative.

I genuinely try (although admittedly regularly fail) to avoid making generalisations as you are alluding to.

I happen to support a legal right to abortion, but I also understand why people don't like it. Let democracy decide. Let science provide research facts and figures. Let religions have their doctrines.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#188

Post by WalterBright »

Swizec wrote: post #60
rpmisms wrote: post #23

Social mobility is very different than economic mobility. It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. Heck, I did it without any college. Social mobility is a different story. I was raised in a rural area, which is essentially a social class of its own. Since becoming an adult, I've found myself gravitating towards working-class people. I like the blu…

A few lessons for social mobility I learned while joining the SF techie class, coming here from a relatively poor country in Europe. 1. If Americans can’t read your emotes they put you in a “Uh this feels weird, that person is an emotionless robot” camp. You have to practice 2. It is not okay to ask “What’s that?” when someone proudly mentions which college they went to (because as a European you only recognize 4 or…

> Talking about money with upper middle class people is impolite. They have never had money problems and do not understand why anyone would ever talk about money

That isn't the reason at all. My parents struggled in the Depression, but they never ever talked about their money. The Depression taught them to be very, very frugal, a lifelong habit. (My family tended to keep cars for 30 years, for example.) I had no idea what my Dad had until after he passed away.

> You don’t fail, you are given an opportunity to grow

This is an attitude common to successful people at all levels. There's a reason it correlates with success.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#189

Post by ianbutler »

theonemind wrote: post #177
csallen wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic? Why is it a bad thing that so many people are so wealthy? The more people who belong to the so-wealthy-it's-hard-to-achieve group, the better.

An unreachable tier of society indicates a fundamental social injustice. They're in the top 20% of wealth...not intelligence, or in any other factor making them deserving of it. Some of them did work hard, and probably deserve it if you consider hard work deserving of it...but, some people worked harder and didn't make it, so it's not a 1-to-1 equation. So there's a huge element of luck, which is kind of like a slave…

"if you consider hard work deserving of it"

Do you mean to say people who do nothing deserve wealth?

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#190

Post by WalterBright »

endisneigh wrote: post #138
WalterBright wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic? Why should some people be able to run much faster than I can? It's not fair there are many men handsomer than myself. They should be required to wear a mask.

imagine equating wealth to attraction, lol. I understand your point, but what an inane example.

Why is it inane? Handsomeness is something you're born with, and most people assert that wealth is, too.
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