Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

economist.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 391 posts

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#121

Post by jldl805 »

inetknght wrote: post #102
csallen wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic? Why is it a bad thing that so many people are so wealthy? The more people who belong to the so-wealthy-it's-hard-to-achieve group, the better.

> Why is it a bad thing that so many people are that wealthy? In the USA's case: for every one person who is that wealthy there are dozens of people struggling to put food on the table.

That does not answer the question you are responding to in any way.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#122

Post by rpmisms »

lifeformed wrote: post #86
rpmisms wrote: post #23

Social mobility is very different than economic mobility. It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. Heck, I did it without any college. Social mobility is a different story. I was raised in a rural area, which is essentially a social class of its own. Since becoming an adult, I've found myself gravitating towards working-class people. I like the blu…

> It's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field. That's if you also had a healthy learning environment at school and home, can afford college, and have a healthy early development to be able to grow up into an sufficiently smart child. A lot of people in the bottom 20% don't have those initial conditions.

Unschooled, no college, committed parents. All I needed.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#123

Post by WalterBright »

forgotmyoldname wrote: post #91
refurb wrote: post #58

Again, it's highly problematic defining mobility as "moving from bottom quintile to top quintile". - Moving from bottom quintile to 2nd highest is significant mobility and completely ignored in this analysis. - The analysis ignores the fact that the highest quintile in the US is higher in absolute terms than other countries. So moving from bottom to 4th may give more income than bottom to 5th in other countries. - Th…

I mean... that doesn't detract from the problem at all. That just says there's a massive wealth divide and that moving up to the mere top 20% (the group 1 out of 5 people belong to) should be considered a ridiculous proposition unless you're born into it. Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic?

> Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic?

Why should some people be able to run much faster than I can?

It's not fair there are many men handsomer than myself. They should be required to wear a mask.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#124

Post by vmception »

999900000999 wrote: post #57

Social mobility is a very tricky thing. I think every person can succeed as long as they have the courage to cut off people who are counterproductive to that. For example, when I look at my own parents, they're simply self-destructive people who never took responsibility for any of their actions. Whenever I've needed to depend on anyone in my family. I've ultimately been let down, but when it comes to my own efforts.…

> All of this sad, I've been very lucky. Medical conditions I'd be screwed. All it takes is a single severe medical condition to financially ruin you, and then you can't afford treatment, in this country says good luck try a go fund me

Then not every person.

The American system greatly adds roadblocks. There are many reasons besides personal medical conditions that your work hard mentality would have been irrelevant or completely out of reach.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#126

Post by inetknght »

csallen wrote: post #111
inetknght wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it a bad thing that so many people are that wealthy? In the USA's case: for every one person who is that wealthy there are dozens of people struggling to put food on the table.

12% of Americans struggle from food insecurity. By definition, 20% of Americans are in the top quintile. I'm with you, I want that first number to be as close to 0% as possible. But it's mathematically untrue that there are dozens of Americans starving for every American in the top 20%. In fact, there are barely half as many.

I count myself to be lucky in the top 20% of earners in America and have friends who also fit in the range. I've met a lot of people who struggle to put food on the table whose income is in the middle 50%. A lot of them have the same complaint: they don't qualify for help because they make too much. But they also struggle to pay their bills because they don't make enough.

I don't know where you think 12% of Americans "struggle from food insecurity". But I don't trust your numbers because my anecdata says different.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#127

Post by jollybean »

rpmisms wrote: post #101
jollybean wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"t's not hugely difficult to earn six figures in the US if you're committed, work hard, and pick a good field." I think that's true for White and Asian folks. But the thing about America is that it has two, giant categories of people in a 'different lane' - notably those in poor Black urban neighbourhoods, and new Latino migrants particularly in Texas/Cali where they are highly segregated from the rest of society. 'T…

I would argue that the people in those ecosystems have much of the opportunity afforded to me, they just don't know about how possible it really is. I personally work at a Floridian company, and have a bunch of coworkers who come from the exact backgrounds you talk about. It's totally possible, it just has to be a known opportunity, not a pie-in-the-sky dream.

Yes, it's definitely possible. But your personal experience more or less indicates that it can be done, not that it commonly is.

"it just has to be a known opportunity" - and this is the rub.

I think that this is far, far more than simply 'informing them they can go to college'. It's an entire life outlook, set of conscientious behaviours, that's almost impossible to contemplate if you're completely outside of positive conditions.

It is true that almost anyone can go to almost any public school, get into a hald-decent Uni and study STEM, and 'have a decent job'. But getting people into that modality is much more easier said than done, it's probably the 'hard part' actually.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#128

Post by ryandrake »

thomasahle wrote: post #85
refurb wrote: post #58

Again, it's highly problematic defining mobility as "moving from bottom quintile to top quintile". - Moving from bottom quintile to 2nd highest is significant mobility and completely ignored in this analysis. - The analysis ignores the fact that the highest quintile in the US is higher in absolute terms than other countries. So moving from bottom to 4th may give more income than bottom to 5th in other countries. - Th…

The story is not so much about the US's (low) social mobility, but about how Americans perceive it. The effect of "Americans are much more optimistic about social mobility" seems to be the same if you look at other measures, like "Probability of remaining in the bottom quintile". (Except Q2 -> Q1 mobility, which Americans seem more pessimistic about for some reason.)

There was a survey[1] a while ago where 19% of Americans said they were in the top 1%, and 20% more believed they would later become the 1%. That adds up to 39% of Americans who are either irrationally optimistic or who failed statistics. It's kind of like how everyone thinks they are an above-average driver and are a top performer at work.

1: https://www.nytimes.com/2003/01/12/opinion/the-triumph-of-ho...

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#129

Post by ummonk »

savant_penguin wrote: post #105
syki wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Read the actual study. The people who did the study are knowledgeable about the topic. If a non expert can think of a problem with the paper after a few moments of thinking about it then it is highly likely that person’s objections are not valid and are accounted for in the study. A person should not read the study or the article and think, “The reason this is nonsense is X.” Rather the thought should be, “I wonder h…

This is possible, but it's also possible that they are just lying too Some studies use household income over years to """prove""" that incomes have either fallen or stagnated. They just outright ignore that the size of the household went from 6+ to about 4. In this scenario a constant household income meant about 50% increase in per Capita income

Are you suggesting that households make use of child labor?

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#130

Post by rpmisms »

stale2002 wrote: post #68
pm90 wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“What I’ve seen contradicts measured statistics across the country” is not a convincing argument. Most users of HN probably live in a bubble; important to look at hard data from reliable sources rather than personal experiences.

> “What I’ve seen contradicts measured statistics across the country” is not a convincing argument. You are not understanding the other possibilities here. The other possibility is that yes, it is true that it is not that hard to make it to this level of success, but the stats are still true, and it is simply that people don't do this, for other reasons. There are a multitude of reasons, as for why someone might not…

A lot of people simply don't want to be HTPL maintenance, for example. It pays very well, but it's hard. That's not acceptable to a lot of folks right now.

My sister-in-law's fiancé is doing it as a journeyman, and he's making very close to what I do as a mid-level SWE.

Post reply on HN