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Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

economist.com

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Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#91

Post by forgotmyoldname »

refurb wrote: post #58

Again, it's highly problematic defining mobility as "moving from bottom quintile to top quintile". - Moving from bottom quintile to 2nd highest is significant mobility and completely ignored in this analysis. - The analysis ignores the fact that the highest quintile in the US is higher in absolute terms than other countries. So moving from bottom to 4th may give more income than bottom to 5th in other countries. - Th…

I mean... that doesn't detract from the problem at all. That just says there's a massive wealth divide and that moving up to the mere top 20% (the group 1 out of 5 people belong to) should be considered a ridiculous proposition unless you're born into it.

Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic?

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#92

Post by cj »

fartcannon wrote: post #72
999900000999 wrote: post #57

Social mobility is a very tricky thing. I think every person can succeed as long as they have the courage to cut off people who are counterproductive to that. For example, when I look at my own parents, they're simply self-destructive people who never took responsibility for any of their actions. Whenever I've needed to depend on anyone in my family. I've ultimately been let down, but when it comes to my own efforts.…

It's also not possible for everyone to succeed since it's a zero sum game. Therefore, you should be thanking the people who's life circumstances prevent them from learning to succeed and doubly you should thank your parents for raising you in a way that you were able to surpass them.

> it's a zero sum game

I’m not an economist, but I don’t think it’s a zero sum game considering the total productivity / economic output of a society can go up (or down). Your success doesn’t need to be at the expense of someone else’s success.

> you should be thanking the people who's life circumstances prevent them from learning to succeed

What?

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#93

Post by redelbee »

chrisseaton wrote: post #40
postpawl wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only 8% of people in the United States make more than $100k: https://graphics.wsj.com/what-percent/ Don't know if I'd call it easy if it's something only 8 out of 100 people do. It also depends on the area. $100k in SF is a lot different than $100k in the mid-west.

> Only 8% of people in the United States make more than $100k How does the percentage change when you look at people with full-time jobs? With full-time professional jobs? Who are actively trying to optimise their income instead of for example prioritising family? I'd guess it becomes much larger very quickly.

According to the 2020 census data linked below the percentage increases to around 24% for individuals who worked full time all year. I don’t think there is any easy way to find the more specific groups you mentioned. That’s not a large enough increase to consider making six figures as easy as “prioritizing” it or whatever you’re proposing.

https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/cps/tables/pinc-01/...

In any case what you’re proposing is selection bias. No one should be surprised that people who work full time are more likely to make six figures than those who don’t. And yes, if you cherry pick a group of “professionals” who receive larger salaries of course the percentage will increase. And it’s back to survivorship bias for the “prioritization” examples you mentioned. Unless you happen to have a random sample of people who don’t make six figures but would prefer to.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#94

Post by dqv »

VWWHFSfQ wrote: post #17
atoav wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it would be easier to become "filthy rich" for a poor person when they start in a nation with free healthcare and education. Because both of those things have a big chance of impacting your poor person's career lastingly if they don't have luck. Most of the 0.1% inherited their wealth or at least came from an well educated background.

> I think it would be easier to become "filthy rich" for a poor person when they start in a nation with free healthcare and education. Poor people in USA have both free healthcare and education. If they're willing to fill-out some forms. Edit: Yes, contrary to the popular belief, poor people in USA do, in fact, get free health care and education.

I almost accepted this and went on my way, but it only tells like 7% of the story. The first thing is that your eligibility stops as soon as you start making more money (i.e. single earner > $17,000). But that increase in money does not cover the new costs for healthcare.

Aha! But at such a low income you get the ACA subsidy! But the insurance plans you can get have really high deductibles. If you're making $20,000 a year and have a $17,000 deductible... that's life ruining if you actually get sick. That's not to mention all the other oddities that go with having these higher-deductible lower premium plans like having to work around non-formulary medications, getting referrals to covered providers (you will be really lucky to have a PCP that does the homework to make sure you are referred in-network), and general insurance fuckery.

I think it's just a little bit more complex than filling out a few forms.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#95

Post by twobitshifter »

I think the first step is to admit we have a problem. People don’t like the United States being labeled as anything less than exceptional. If you look at the Amazon workers, Uber drivers, door dashers, etc in this country it’s amazing how hard people can work and not get ahead. 2nd and 3rd jobs can be necessary to just make ends meet. The story that hard work is all it takes in America does need to be questioned.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#96

Post by BLKNSLVR »

999900000999 wrote: post #57

Social mobility is a very tricky thing. I think every person can succeed as long as they have the courage to cut off people who are counterproductive to that. For example, when I look at my own parents, they're simply self-destructive people who never took responsibility for any of their actions. Whenever I've needed to depend on anyone in my family. I've ultimately been let down, but when it comes to my own efforts.…

Well said. Drama is a time and attention suck - away from not only productivity, but time spent where you could be doing things that make you actually happy, which in turn, generally, makes you a more productive person with a desire to 'do things' rather than sit and fucking mope.

Gossip, drama, lifestyle comparison, it's a recipe for failure (which is what social media supposedly encourages). I'm not any kind of benchmark for career-ambitious productivity, but there are things I like to do and personal goals I have in mind that allow me to surf on top of the "everywhere, all the time" human emotional whirlpool that would be very easy to get sucked into, thus saying goodbye to the 'who' and the 'where' I'm aiming at. Happy to listen to people who come to me for a sympathetic ear, but I'm not taking on your shit, mainly because I'd never ask you to take on mine.

Not sure if this captures it properly, but: The more you macro, the less you micro.

(I've had one semi-significant medical issue, but Australian private healthcare saved me from any severe recalculation of life priorities. I'm very thankful that I'm a generally healthy person).

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#97

Post by pentae »

refurb wrote: post #58

Again, it's highly problematic defining mobility as "moving from bottom quintile to top quintile". - Moving from bottom quintile to 2nd highest is significant mobility and completely ignored in this analysis. - The analysis ignores the fact that the highest quintile in the US is higher in absolute terms than other countries. So moving from bottom to 4th may give more income than bottom to 5th in other countries. - Th…

The economist has been pushing a certain political agenda for a while now, I cancelled my subscription a while ago because of this reason

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#98

Post by Nowado »

bogota wrote: post #90
fartcannon wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also not possible for everyone to succeed since it's a zero sum game. Therefore, you should be thanking the people who's life circumstances prevent them from learning to succeed and doubly you should thank your parents for raising you in a way that you were able to surpass them.

How is it a zero sum game? I see this said a lot here without any proof? It this just taken as true and no proof is needed?

By the definition of 'social mobility'. That's how quantiles work.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#99

Post by chrisseaton »

redelbee wrote: post #93
chrisseaton wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only 8% of people in the United States make more than $100k How does the percentage change when you look at people with full-time jobs? With full-time professional jobs? Who are actively trying to optimise their income instead of for example prioritising family? I'd guess it becomes much larger very quickly.

According to the 2020 census data linked below the percentage increases to around 24% for individuals who worked full time all year. I don’t think there is any easy way to find the more specific groups you mentioned. That’s not a large enough increase to consider making six figures as easy as “prioritizing” it or whatever you’re proposing. https://www2.census.gov/programs-surveys/cps/tables/pinc-01/... In any case wh…

I think you've just proved yourself that making 100k is extremely achievable in the US (1/4) for someone who even just bothers to turn up full-time.

Re: Americans overestimate social mobility in their country

#100

Post by csallen »

forgotmyoldname wrote: post #91
refurb wrote: post #58

Again, it's highly problematic defining mobility as "moving from bottom quintile to top quintile". - Moving from bottom quintile to 2nd highest is significant mobility and completely ignored in this analysis. - The analysis ignores the fact that the highest quintile in the US is higher in absolute terms than other countries. So moving from bottom to 4th may give more income than bottom to 5th in other countries. - Th…

I mean... that doesn't detract from the problem at all. That just says there's a massive wealth divide and that moving up to the mere top 20% (the group 1 out of 5 people belong to) should be considered a ridiculous proposition unless you're born into it. Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic?

> Why should 1 out of 5 people belong to a group so wealthy that saying mobility is difficult should be considered problematic?

Why is it a bad thing that so many people are so wealthy? The more people who belong to the so-wealthy-it's-hard-to-achieve group, the better.

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