Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#971

Post by hajile » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 4:29 PM UTC

VortexDream wrote: post #913

nzk wrote: post #47

What we're seeing here is one of the wealthiest countries in the world with a population of > 80M people crumbling over a few thousand ICU patients because of long-standing issues that were never addressed. The staffing problems in hospitals (and nursing homes) have existed much longer than Covid. I heard a lot about them myself when I did my FSJ (volunteer work) back in 2004, and it's only gotten worse since then. O…

I'm terrified by the fact that there are so many antivaxxers in Germany that they're showing up here too, as supposedly educated and intelligent peers. It is absolutely the fault of unvaccinated that they're unvaccinated and putting society at risk. It doesn't matter how many ICU beds and staff you have, an unvaccinated population would quickly overwhelm it simply by virtue of how incredibly long it takes to recover…

Vaccinated people get the disease and transmit it about as well as unvaccinated people.

This means the virus is busy making copies of itself in their body. Those copies not only have a chance to mutate, but have evolutionary selective pressure to mutate around the vaccine.

If you don't have the vaccine, it has no pressure to mutate around the vaccine.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#972

Post by tekknik » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 4:31 PM UTC

Scoundreller wrote: post #139

fabian2k wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Something like 50% of the people in intensive care for COVID still die. Even if we were able to handle the load on the healthcare system, that still would be a very large amount of unnecessary suffering and death. And even though there are some fundamental issues with working conditions and pay in this area, fixing them would not be enough to be able to handle the load that an exponentially growing viral disease coul…

> Something like 50% of the people in intensive care for COVID still die. I don’t think this is too far from the survival rate of those admitted to intensive care in general. But I think the point is that COVID really increases your chances of being admitted there in the first place.

So far I know 4 that have contracted COVID and all explained it felt like a bad flu but no where near enough to go to the hospital. But mileage will vary here for sure.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#973

Post by dmix » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 5:12 PM UTC

sleepysysadmin wrote: post #960

dmix wrote: post #385

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Furthermore Bill 124, introduced in 2019, disincentivizes nurses by limiting wage increases. Many nurses have said repealing the bill would go a long way in retaining nurses. Others say removing barriers for internationally educated nurses would help fill in gaps. Wow, why is there the wage cap when nursing has long been an issue in Ontario? I wonder who thinks this stuff up and thinks they are somehow saving money…

>Wow, why is there the wage cap when nursing has long been an issue in Ontario? I wonder who thinks this stuff up and thinks they are somehow saving money by doing this. It just generates inefficiencies and unintended side effects. Bill 124 has nothing at all to do with Nurses. The word 'nurse' does not show up even once. This bill is effectively what put doug ford into power. That is to say, he was elected to pass t…

I'm all for reduction in the size of bureaucracies and addressing financial issues realistically. I just strongly dislike when they create inflexibility with things like wage increase caps. It's a strong hammer aimed at a few well deserved targets but hits broadly across a wide group where it doesn't always make sense. It's like a one size fits all approach.

But I don't know enough about provincial politics to debate the policies. You seem to have a better grasp of that.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#974

Post by orblivion » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

TurkishPoptart wrote: post #619

fileeditview wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument always is that there are not enough beds for non-corona patients. More beds would certainly help. It is nonsense to vaccinate young and very healthy people, especially kids. Their risk from COVID is minimal to non-existent. Also the spread is not stopped by vaccinating. Vaccinated still spread the virus. If it is reduced is still unclear. There was a study in GB that showed the incidence numbers in vacci…

>...fully vaccinated individuals with breakthrough infections have peak viral load similar to unvaccinated cases and can efficiently transmit infection in household settings, including to fully vaccinated contacts. Host–virus interactions early in infection may shape the entire viral trajectory. Source: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3...

* Chance of catching it?

* Peak viral load, GIVEN catching it?

* Duration of peak viral load, GIVEN catching it?

* Severe disease, GIVEN catching it?

* Hospital stay, GIVEN catching it?

* Death, GIVEN catching it?

There are many relevant parameters that the vaccines might affect. And the vaccinated people have a few parameters: number of shots, time since last shot, age, etc. People seem to focus on one or two of these questions at a time.

From your link, actually, related to duration:

"Fully vaccinated individuals with delta variant infection had a faster (posterior probability >0·84) mean rate of viral load decline (0·95 log10 copies per mL per day) than did unvaccinated individuals with pre-alpha (0·69), alpha (0·82), or delta (0·79) variant infections."

Clearly it's not going to stop transmission, but it could slow it down. People on both sides of this issue seem to undervalue partial measures and tradeoffs.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#975

Post by e40 » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 5:14 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #680

Somehow I think these super heavy handed measures toward covid are a big mistake. My opinion: - Remove all restrictions, let people assess their own risk tolerance and voluntarily follow country's health guidance (or not). - If ICUs start getting maxed out, implement bed rationing, with unvaccinated patients having lowest priority. - Tell everyone to go on with their lives and that covid is here to stay. There's no e…

What about people who are forced to be near unvaccinated people? Like at school and work? For those who are immunocompromised it would mean either a death sentence or banishment from large parts of society.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#976

Post by saalweachter » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 5:53 PM UTC

stefan_ wrote: post #970

hajile wrote: post #969

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you know that the immune system reacts to more than just the spike protein? It will create a dozen or so antibodies against all the different parts of the virus. If the spike protein mutates like it did in Omicron, most of the other antibodies will still continue to work while new spike antibodies are created. In contrast, if the vaccine-induced antibodies are avoided, immunity in vaccinated people drops to zero.…

It's such a dumb take because natural immunity requires you to contract real Covid . I wish this was obvious, but it seems required to state it outright? I feel you should take this revelation straight to the vaccine makers and tell them they wasted all their effort and should have hosted infection parties instead.

On this topic, it's worth noting that most vaccine side effects -- which are largely "your immune system kicked into high gear and exploded" type problems -- are an order of magnitude worse when fighting an actual infection than when responding to a vaccine.

E.g., Guillain-Barre syndrome is ~10 times more common after a COVID infection than a COVID vaccine. Myocarditis is something like 20 times more likely.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#977

Post by _moof » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 5:58 PM UTC

disambiguation wrote: post #911

_moof wrote: post #572

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All kinds of vaccines have been mandatory for generations. You wouldn't have been allowed to attend school if you hadn't had loads of them. In the US for instance all schoolchildren are required to be vaccinated against diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis, polio, varicella, measles, and rubella, and almost all states also require vaccinations against mumps and hepatitis B. So please don't act like requiring vaccination is…

All kinds of vaccines are also not required, namely the flu vaccine, which covid arguably has more in common with than any of the other diseases above.

Which is completely beside the point since the post I was replying to is apparently bemoaning vaccine mandates generally as some unprecedented new development, which again, they aren't. If you want to have a discussion about whether this particular vaccine should be mandated, fine, but that's not at all what the person I was replying to was trying to do; they were complaining about mandates of any kind, and apparently don't know that mandates are as old as dirt and just as common.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#978

Post by umvi » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 6:13 PM UTC

e40 wrote: post #975

umvi wrote: post #680

Somehow I think these super heavy handed measures toward covid are a big mistake. My opinion: - Remove all restrictions, let people assess their own risk tolerance and voluntarily follow country's health guidance (or not). - If ICUs start getting maxed out, implement bed rationing, with unvaccinated patients having lowest priority. - Tell everyone to go on with their lives and that covid is here to stay. There's no e…

What about people who are forced to be near unvaccinated people? Like at school and work? For those who are immunocompromised it would mean either a death sentence or banishment from large parts of society.

> What about people who are forced to be near unvaccinated people? Like at school and work?

I'm not sure what the concern here is, but if the concern is that vaccinated people might infect and kill their unvaccinated peers... again, the unvaccinated made their choice, and there may or may not be consequences depending on their symptoms and whether the ICU is full.

Immunocompromised people who can't get vaccinated... they are already effectively banished from society with or without my plan because vaccinated people can spread it to them (and kill them). I don't see a way for the immunocompromised to return to normalcy ever. It is impossible to eradicate covid. Luckily (from what I understand) people in that situation are extremely rare.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#979

Post by Krasnol » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 7:29 PM UTC

blub wrote: post #902

Krasnol wrote: post #720

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So true and not mentioned enough by the media. This is nonsense. The topic has been in the news almost from the beginning of the crisis. The government is being constantly criticised for that. Why do you people repeat this? It's a lie. The fact that this topic is now being used by anti-vaxxers to cloud their anti-social behaviour and shift the growing anger of the vaccinated population away from them is ridiculous.…

Not getting vaccinated is not antisocial, assuming that those people take care otherwise. The only people which exhibit antisocial behavior are those that don’t care about protecting themselves and others from infection. Wearing a mask, avoiding meeting others and getting tested is just as valid as getting a vaccine. Perhaps more, because those that do get vaccinated (at least among my acquaintances) seem to wrongly…

> Not getting vaccinated is not antisocial, assuming that those people take care otherwise.

Take care like what? Be locked up for years and not meeting anyone? Because everything else is much more risky than just taking the damn jab and stfu about it.

Also: those people who still are unvaccinated are mostly conspiracy nutjobs and don't give a damn about the rest of the population around them so it's quite obvious they wouldn't give a damn about "taking care".

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#980

Post by Barrin92 » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 8:07 PM UTC

lm28469 wrote: post #943

Barrin92 wrote: post #272

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Simply because “a couple thousand” is all that’s needed during ordinary times. Yes but.. extraordinary times exist, if we were sane we would prepare for crises before they happen, because we always knew that it would hit us eventually, people have been warning about this for ages, this is not some black swan. More healthcare capacity would help, just like more supply chain capacity would help, or the ability to manu…

> Yes but.. extraordinary times exist, if we were sane we would prepare for crises before they happen You can't keep the staff and maintain the gear needed to handle 100x "once in a century" event all the time, it just doesn't work. Most health systems are already huge money sinks and on the brink of collapse in normal times... This isn't a "a bomb injured 300 people" event, we can't live 100% prepared to every singl…

you don't need to 100x it, but you can keep 20-30% of slack in the system, instead of literally cutting or not even keeping up funding for one of the most important sectors of the country. Nurses and healthcare workers have been overworked for ages in Germany, and not just here. With the NHS in England it's the exact same situation. Most of the countries had higher capacity ten or twenty years ago then we have now. What's the point of getting richer and growing if your public infrastructure decays?

And the other thing you can do is, actually have a prepared and tested response plan to a crisis. Our reaction to this was to dust off some plans from the the shelves, every individual state had different systems in place, two years in we don't really have a functioning digital app, but ten different solutions none of which more than a fraction of people have adopted, and so forth. Completely avoidable chaos if anyone was actually in charge of readying the country for these situations.