Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#961

Post by MagnumOpus » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 1:29 PM UTC

tomp wrote: post #691

GVIrish wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden did worse than the other Scandinavian countries that enacted stricter Covid restrictions, including lockdowns. Sweden had roughly 5-7x as many deaths per capita as its immediate neighbors of Norway and Finland. Germany had less deaths per capita as well: https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

This is often repeated fake news. Take a look at this graph - cumulative deaths since, I don't know, start of 2021 or something. https://ourworldindata.org/explorers/coronavirus-data-explor... Sweden is just barely worse than other Scandinavian countries (definitely not 5-7x). Germany is 50-100% worse than Sweden. So while you might use "total deaths" as an argument that the Swedish "no lockdowns" strategy was worse…

To paraphrase you: it was great to have all those vulnerable people in care homes die immediately from Covid in 2020 since it avoids a few of them dying in 2021.

You realise how nonsensical (and callous) that sounds?

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#962

Post by account42 » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 1:47 PM UTC

krater23 wrote: post #211

bellyfullofbac wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Analog phone networks break down (you get no dialtone) if everyone in the service area picked up their handset and want to dial-out, they have much fewer lines than handsets, because they calculated what capacity they might need (how many calls would be ongoing at one time) and just have that many lines, plus maybe a safety margin. I'm guessing it's the same with ICU beds... And now we have a situation where a high p…

Yes, but do you really think we should manage our health system like a windy cell phone network provider? By the way, the cell phone networks and internet connections in Germany are on the level of some 3rd world countries.

> By the way, the cell phone networks and internet connections in Germany are on the level of some 3rd world countries.

There is no need to insult 3rd world countries like this.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#963

Post by account42 » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 2:39 PM UTC

Hir0ki wrote: post #934

errantmind wrote: post #850

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, as long as people who eat excessively, smoke cigarettes, drink alcohol, etc. also sign away their healthcare. Why should we enable their bad decisions?

There is a reson why in germany and other european contires have sugar limit's in sodas an other foods. To try to mitigate the bad decisions.

There is no limit how much sugar you are allowed to add to your own food.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#964

Post by oezi » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 2:46 PM UTC

retromario wrote: post #346

zibzab wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the very beginning Germany was doing _extremely_ well, until the protesters showed up. Which is crazy, because Germany managed to do well by good organisation and mass testing, not by lockdowns.

Uh, Germany locked down pretty hard, several times. "Good" organisation and mass testing came later. Source: my last two years with three kids at home

The couple of months of schooling at home wasn't really a hard lockdown when compared with other countries in Europe.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#965

Post by MrDresden » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 2:55 PM UTC

Bellend wrote: post #721

MrDresden wrote: post #509

My partner was diagnosed with cervical cancer a couple of months ago and is now on the brink of starting radio- & chemotherapy. Due to the covid situation here in the Netherlands the treatment may not go ahead as planned, and treatment might get delayed, due to the new measures. I then know of people who's heart surgaries have been delayed 5x times due to the stress covid is putting on the health care system in anoth…

Sorry to hear that MrDresden. I hope your partner's care is successful going forward and it can be expedited as a high priority case.

Thank you. We are hoping that as well, everyday.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#966

Post by oezi » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 3:04 PM UTC

musicale wrote: post #17

What are the major root causes for the surge in Germany? Low humidity/temperature? New variants? Something else? IIRC last winter in the US at least, health officials and the media were quick to blame irresponsible citizens and social gatherings – but the major root cause seemed to be a new, more transmissible (delta) variant.

Major cause of the surge is that temperature have gotten too low for outdoor meetings/dining and keeping windows open. Same as last year.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#967

Post by PestoDiRucola » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 3:58 PM UTC

switch007 wrote: post #596

mattlondon wrote: post #437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For what it is worth, in the UK there were similar concerns. They set up "Nightingale Hospitals" (reference to Florence Nightingale) - basically convention centres were converted into field hospitals with ventilators. One in London had 4000 beds, and there were others elsewhere in the country. It took 9 days to build the London one (I was impressed!) After all that, the 4000 bed one in London treated 20 patients duri…

Those hospitals were a joke. Ask anybody who worked in the NHS and they would have told you no way in hell could they have found sufficient numbers of staff to actually run them. A publicity stunt. The country went crazy thinking people were dying in the street and we needed emergency hospitals/morgues

Same thing happened here in Italy especially during the first wave. They started building these temporary hospitals that hosted very few patients and some of them even finished during the end of the wave when there was no need for extra beds anymore.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#968

Post by tekknik » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #390

fileeditview wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument always is that there are not enough beds for non-corona patients. More beds would certainly help. It is nonsense to vaccinate young and very healthy people, especially kids. Their risk from COVID is minimal to non-existent. Also the spread is not stopped by vaccinating. Vaccinated still spread the virus. If it is reduced is still unclear. There was a study in GB that showed the incidence numbers in vacci…

Vaccines do reduce spread. While vaccinated people who get infected still spread the virus, they’re less likely to get infected in the first place, which is a necessary precursor to spreading.

Not necessarily true with the new variants, and it won’t be true for future variants either. The virus jumped to wild animals so it’s freely mutating in unvaccinated hosts outside of the human population.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#969

Post by hajile » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 4:20 PM UTC

stefan_ wrote: post #316

nzk wrote: post #47

What we're seeing here is one of the wealthiest countries in the world with a population of > 80M people crumbling over a few thousand ICU patients because of long-standing issues that were never addressed. The staffing problems in hospitals (and nursing homes) have existed much longer than Covid. I heard a lot about them myself when I did my FSJ (volunteer work) back in 2004, and it's only gotten worse since then. O…

Is this the ventilator fallacy? You know, it's march 2020, and everyone is rushing to make more of those damn ventilators? If you end up on a fucking ventilator in an ICU bed, the damage is long done . The goal is not to maximize the number of people we can have on ventilators. That is an absurd idea on the same level of the "natural immunity is better than the vaccine!" insanity we got in 2021.

Did you know that the immune system reacts to more than just the spike protein? It will create a dozen or so antibodies against all the different parts of the virus.

If the spike protein mutates like it did in Omicron, most of the other antibodies will still continue to work while new spike antibodies are created. In contrast, if the vaccine-induced antibodies are avoided, immunity in vaccinated people drops to zero.

This leads to another consideration. As I understand it, antibody tests only check for the spike protein antibodies. This implies that if there are 10 other antibodies not being tested, then actual protection is 10x higher than the test indicates. Any antibody count falls over time because the body is efficient. If the disease enters the body again, it will just start pumping out the antibodies again as long as it knows how to make them.

The proof of the pudding is in the eating. People with just natural immunity in Israel are 10-15x better off than people who just got the vaccine. As this is the largest such study and encompasses pretty much the entire population, you can eliminate common sample size and selection bias issues that happen when you hand-choose a couple hundred people to look at.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#970

Post by stefan_ » Fri, Dec 03, 2021, 4:28 PM UTC

hajile wrote: post #969

stefan_ wrote: post #316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this the ventilator fallacy? You know, it's march 2020, and everyone is rushing to make more of those damn ventilators? If you end up on a fucking ventilator in an ICU bed, the damage is long done . The goal is not to maximize the number of people we can have on ventilators. That is an absurd idea on the same level of the "natural immunity is better than the vaccine!" insanity we got in 2021.

Did you know that the immune system reacts to more than just the spike protein? It will create a dozen or so antibodies against all the different parts of the virus. If the spike protein mutates like it did in Omicron, most of the other antibodies will still continue to work while new spike antibodies are created. In contrast, if the vaccine-induced antibodies are avoided, immunity in vaccinated people drops to zero.…

It's such a dumb take because natural immunity requires you to contract real Covid. I wish this was obvious, but it seems required to state it outright? I feel you should take this revelation straight to the vaccine makers and tell them they wasted all their effort and should have hosted infection parties instead.