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Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

blog.jetbrains.com

291–300 of 427 posts

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#291
post #232

Huh, just the other day i was talking about how JetBrains products succeed in being some of the best IDEs around, but fail at the use case of just wanting to edit text files, where Notepad++, Visual Studio Code, Emacs, Sublime and vim could all be preferable to it: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29362960 And then JetBrains come out with this... That's certainly pleasant to see!

thats funny I've always found jetbrains IDE to be error ridden annoyances where I end up spending more time dealing with problems the IDE has caused than developing software.

> I've always found jetbrains IDE to be error ridden annoyances where I end up spending more time dealing with problems the IDE has caused than developing software.

My personal experience has been pretty much the opposite of this, as someone that uses Java almost every day and other languages occasionally (.NET, Python, PHP, Ruby, JS/TS, SQL, a little bit of Go).

If i had to rank all of the IDEs that i've used from the most productive/stable to the least, it'd go about like this:

  - IntelliJ IDEA: the best way to write Java, and the best of JetBrains' products, period
  - most other JetBrains IDEs: Rider (a bit slow, but a lot of good features), PyCharm (slow to start, but nice to use), PhpStorm (no complaints, it's just that Laravel refactoring is way behind what Java gives you), RubyMine (one of the better options for Rails, despite its dynamic nature, autocomplete just works), WebStorm (a pretty good way to write JS/TS, even with some outdated and obscure codebases, like ES5 with AngularJS and no webpack), DataGrip (a bit niche since other IDEs cover a lot of the other functionality, but also present in the ecosystem), Goland (just recently started using, similarly usable); all of those are definitely worth the Ultimate subscription of their products IMO
  - Visual Studio: a pretty good IDE that has a similarly slow startup to Rider but feels good afterwards, especially for developing against Windows and doing .NET, perhaps better than Rider in some regards, though i hate the VS Installer with a passion, still haven't removed all of the crap it installed, years later, and the checkboxes for the features you may/may not want are confusing and it's a massive waste of space (though i guess the Python etc. integrations are nice for some + Azure stuff); also has the most tutorials for it out there
  - NetBeans: my darling a few years ago, completely free, reasonably capable and has some other tooling based on it (e.g. jMonkeyEngine SDK), if it had better framework integration and wasn't so dead, i'd gladly keep using it, since the keybindings are perhaps some of the most sane i've ever seen; also supports PHP and C/C++, but those are a bit weaker here; also really slows down with large projects
  - Eclipse: i hate Eclipse, some people swear by its workflows, but i've used plenty of horrible software that decided to use it as a platform and did so poorly (4EM tools, model driven development tools for generating source code, some random remote'ish development platforms) though it's also really poor on its own, as a regular Java IDE; unhelpful, inconsistent and slow
  - Android Studio: perhaps one of the few tools that are worse than Eclipse (aside from obscure SWI-Prolog IDEs and some ASM IDEs), i don't know what went so wrong here, but it's slow, chugs memory, makes the CPU hit 100% usage with 4 cores and just generally feels like a bad solution, i'm not sure where JetBrains went wrong, but since last trying it about 3-4 years ago, i haven't picked it back up since
I'd probably put some other IDEs, like QtCreator near Visual Studio, but i don't have enough experience with it or C/C++ development myself to say for sure. Apart from that, VS Code would be near the top as far as snappiness goes and near the bottom as far as features go (or in the middle with enough plugins, provided that nothing breaks).

That's about it, each IDE has its advantages and disadvantages.

For example, even IntelliJ might need you to dig through the VM and memory options when you want to open projects that approach 1M SLoC, since the defaults might not be good enough.

Oh, and in regards to DB tools, MySQL Workbench would have the #1 spot (since the modelling and forward/backward engineering and schema sync functionality is to die for, when planning things), DataGrip the #2, pgAdmin the 3# (the UI just feels non-native and bad, cumbersome to use, unresponsive) and SQL Developer would be near the bottom, after whatever else software i'd decide to list (horrible whenever you try to do anything apart from just writing and executing SQL, e.g. the modelling bits have failed to save and later re-open files pretty consistently).

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand this approach. Obviously you'll have a choice. And those who struggle with English would love to have a choice as well.

Instead of learning english those people will now struggle both with english and programming, it is really a disservice. And when you'll collaborate with people using poorly translated terminology you'll struggle too.

This is such a self centered colionolist attitude.

Not everyone is going to be collaborating with foreigners. Even if a programming language is based around an English view, many company APIs may be based on their own primary communication language. Or it may just help someone who's still great at communicating in English to work more efficiently, when English isn't their primary language.

Choice is good. Don't force your English centric world view on everyone.

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just in case you haven't tried that yet, increase the IDE's memory heap size. That solved the problem of sluggishness for me.

Why hasn't Java added an option for automatic heap sizing for the desktop application use case (or any use case, for that matter)? Seems like a no-brainer thing to add, so I guess there are Reasons(tm).

It has. Modern JVMs can use as much memory as they "need" to, but for some reason JetBrains don't use this feature. I think after they upgrade to Java 17 they'll get it. But this has really killed their brand for a long time. 99% of the time people complain about their IDEs being slow it's because the app is GC thrashing and burning CPU rather than increase heap size.

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#294

Space Fleet The goal is not to replace VSCode (hardly any money in there) or Intellij but to fill a gap in the Space offering. Space is IMHO JetBrain's main strategic initiative for the next 10 years (and very promising).

What do you mean by space?

https://www.jetbrains.com/space/

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#295
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

please email me if you have any corrections / suggestions for improvement for the instructions :-)

Please note that the JBR is a custom build that contains a number of important changes and fixes, and it's not recommended to replace this. For M1 support, it's much better to use an M1 compatible JVM and .NET runtime. Rider 2021.2 is an Intel build, because when it was released there was no M1 compatible .NET Runtime. Rider 2021.3 has an M1 build, and makes a big difference. It's currently in preview ( https://www.j…

Liberica offers an M1 JVM https://bell-sw.com/announcements/2021/03/12/Liberica-on-App...

I wonder if JetBrains has some incentive to keep Mac users happy at the expense of others, because there is no justification for the unacceptably bad performance of CLion, PyCharm, and IDEA with a version 11 JDK on Linux, given how much better it is on JDK 15/16.

I have never seen any indication that they have are going to address this, nor have they even acknowledged that it's a problem, nor that they intend to upgrade from JDK 11 to something more up-to-date. Still, they have 1 year and 10 months from now until the end of active support, so perhaps this might provoke them into action.

The fact that JBR even exists is a red flag. Should every vendor ship their own JVM?!

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#296
post #74
post #64

To me it sounds like this is used to test a rewrite of all their IDEs because it is written from scratch. I can imagine if this becomes a succes they will update all their IDEs or use Fleet as the new platform.

Over year ago JetBrains released a post showing they don't understand why VSCode eats their market: > Still, we don’t deny the information could be a bit skewed – even with the weighting we give to our survey results – given that this is from the JetBrains State of Developer Ecosystem survey, and one of JetBrains main products is IntelliJ IDEA. However, that is not to say that this is not totally unreasonable, as if…

Gonna draw a comparison here.

People loooove dynamic langues, no-sql etc.

But from all my experience, once you start getting into bigger projects, maintenance etc. they become a detriment.

So they start with a simple IDE and avoid the IDE with the kitchen sink. Because ultimately they don't know what they are losing/going to lose.

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#297
post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it was primarily android and gradle issues honestly within its jetbrains IDE. jetbrains itself has performance issues, and you need to muck around too much to get them working properly. the JVM also causes issues resulting it having to tune the environment params to get decent performance. JB makes tons of assumptions and attempts to be helpful in ways that just are not; precompiling automatically, running massive in…

Yeah, if you just want a text editor and not an IDE, you probably shouldn't be using an IDE. Those things that are "just not" helpful to you are very helpful to others. Personally, I very much want an actual IDE for a lot of my work. So I'm happy to buy a fast machine with plenty of RAM and then give the IDE a good chunk of it. But I'm glad they're making Fleet for folks with other preferences, and I'm sure I'll be u…

no I want my IDE to be functional without destroying my system performance or fucking up my codebase. jet brains is a massive offender here. it doesn't need to be. I have a giant machine ~128GB of RAM and 24 cores. the fact I have to tune my IDE is insane.

the not helpful issues with jetbrains are when it crashes, slows down my system, prevents me from modifying files because reasons, modifies my build configurations in unsafe ways because it thinks it knows best, interferes with CLI run commands because it doesn't safely check that it can modify files owned by other applications.

I'll grant you these are generally issues with the individual plugins within jetbrains. why deal with all that when I don't have to? Why deal with the performance issues the JVM has when I don't have to?

vscode I get autocomplete, debuggers, decent linting, decent performance. that's an IDE in a nutshell. not a text editor.

I'm happy you enjoy JB, great. it doesn't change any of the above and havent seen any indicators that the above has changed or will change in the future for it. hence I don't use it.

fleet may be promising in this regard. but don't feel the need to jump ship when I already have remote code editing in vscode. which is the only real first class feature fleet has to distinguish itself from other IDEs.

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#298
post #239
post #228

Whenever I try to use something other than IntelliJ (generally VS Code) I'm always struck by how awful the code completion and auto-imports are. I really hope we can get a lightweight editor with those two functions working properly. However, I don't see how you can do either of those features well without a lot of indexing of the codebase. And indexing is a major reason why IntelliJ so so clunky.

Even though I wouldn't classify it as "awful", I do agree with the sentiment. Whenever I use Clion, I feel I need to have vscode also on the same project to mitigate the shortcomings of it's code completion and even search. Clion's support for CMake is particularly enfuriating, with it's propensity to actively replate a target's name with filenames, even if they do not match in caps, which makes absolutely no sense a…

Have you tried a C/C++ lsp server like https://github.com/MaskRay/ccls? Works with vscode/whatever you want, and just targets your Makefile (using bear to generate the dependency graph).

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#299
post #228

Whenever I try to use something other than IntelliJ (generally VS Code) I'm always struck by how awful the code completion and auto-imports are. I really hope we can get a lightweight editor with those two functions working properly. However, I don't see how you can do either of those features well without a lot of indexing of the codebase. And indexing is a major reason why IntelliJ so so clunky.

With same languages? Whenever I stray away from C#/Java world, I am amazed how bad the IDE experience is for other languages, but that's because most other languages have features which don't play well with IDEs (dynamic typing, templates, macros, anything compile time).

[deleted]

Re: Fleet, a Lightweight IDE from JetBrains

#300
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same. > For years folks have been asking us, “JetBrains, when will you create a lightweight editor?” I sure never did. If anything, I want their IDEs to be more involved and sophisticated. Otherwise I'm likely going to cancel our company subscriptions next year, VSCode is starting to overtake e.g. PyCharm in terms of developer comfort. So I really hope this is just a tech demonstrator to renew the architecture of the…

I've worked in 4 different software shops over the last 15 years. My general observation is the developers who rely on heavily automated/magic tooling are significantly outclassed by those who use the terminal + a basic text editor. Terminal + Vim or Emacs/VSCode (depending on configuration) is not only all you need, it also produces developers who understand the systems they work with. I know a lot of people will di…

I have to agree with you. At least in my experience this seems true (with a few exceptions). I feel that devs that rely on auto-complete and such of an IDE are never really forced to know the libraries and code they're using. To me it feels like training wheels they never take off, and therefore can never move at full speed. But maybe it's just that due to the popularity of these IDEs, many newer devs are using them while older, more experienced devs are still using what they're used to.

Quick edit: I work with some junior devs who all use IDEs. It pains me when I ask them where some code is and they only give me the filename and not the full path. I guess this is because that is what is most prominent in the IDE.

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