If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect? • Hacker News Board

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#111

Post by arethuza » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 12:00 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #94

arethuza wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I honestly think that most people in the software field have no idea of the level of personal responsibility that junior doctors and lawyers are given and what that can mean in terms of stress levels.

To be fair, not every programmer faces "Oh noes I will lose a cat picture" as their maximum possible downside when coding. I worked in a town where programming errors could easily causes crashes. There was talk of that actually happening once, although on investigation that probably wasn't actually true. When I say "crashes", the hardware at issue would routinely way several tons and be moving at 60+ miles an hour. I…

Any environment where you were developing software that had that impact on safety and where there wasn't appropriate testing and health and safety checks would probably result in someone from management going to jail if someone was hurt.

In a legal/medical environment it is usually much more personal and it is the individual professional who is held responsible - potentially criminally.

There is also the fact that doctors, and many lawyers (although obviously not all - I should have qualified that) do things that have an immediate impact on people (treating the guy having a heart attack, sending that murderer to jail, preventing someone accused of some horrible crime from being railroaded, telling someone that they will die of cancer etc.).

[Note: I am married to a litigation lawyer - so I am biased!]

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#112

Post by bglbrg » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 12:02 PM UTC

acangiano wrote: post #103

wheels wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But saying my arguments are "entitled whining" isn't disagreement, it's name calling. Actually it's not. Name calling would be if I called you an entitled whiner. There's a difference between attacking your argument and attacking you. (And if we're sticking to the taxonomy, that part of my comment would be DH2, "responding to tone".) Evidence? That was the crux of my post. Programmers do get filthy rich (usually via…

Let's be honest here. It's hard to define respect, but an overwhelming majority of parents would rather have their daughter marry a lawyer or a doctor, than a programmer. That right there gives you a strong indicator of society's take on the issue. I'm not arguing that programmers get no respect (they do pretty well among non-prestigious trades). I'm arguing that programmers are not perceived as belonging to the same…

Well, if you want potential mothers-in-law to gaze lovingly, consider that they have interacted with physicians and attorneys and know what their value is, as has our society for centuries. Stand up straight, offer eye contact and a warm smile, and if you're every bit as smart and dedicated as the average finance dude, what is left to prove? Be confident that you can quickly educate anyone on the nobility of your professional choice. Any doc or lawyer can lay it on thick. ;)

In all seriousness...I don't altogether get this gripe. I guess because I went to art school and will never, ever have any "power," let alone money. But it was _my_ choice. I'd rather be doing something fun that I'm good at.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#113

Post by TeMPOraL » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 12:03 PM UTC

makecheck wrote: post #5

As a programmer I'll comment on why I wouldn't fit into some of the molds you've suggested that programmers might join. (Personal opinion, of course.) 1. As a general rule, I am very unwilling to put up with crap...life is too short. I also want to be productive with the energy I put into something. If you are hired in a technical job, you can reasonably expect to be around competence (and if you're not, you leave).…

So, in tl; dr: engineers tend to have aversion to bullshit - the one that tends to fill upper-management and business circles.

I understand your sentiments - I personally don't see myself as ever joining upper management - in my life I want to do good, worthwhile things. If the best way to accomplish something will be to manage a team, then fine. But no crap, straight to the point. It's the one reason I find startups more and more appealing.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#114

Post by marcomonteiro » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 12:03 PM UTC

acangiano wrote: post #103

wheels wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But saying my arguments are "entitled whining" isn't disagreement, it's name calling. Actually it's not. Name calling would be if I called you an entitled whiner. There's a difference between attacking your argument and attacking you. (And if we're sticking to the taxonomy, that part of my comment would be DH2, "responding to tone".) Evidence? That was the crux of my post. Programmers do get filthy rich (usually via…

Let's be honest here. It's hard to define respect, but an overwhelming majority of parents would rather have their daughter marry a lawyer or a doctor, than a programmer. That right there gives you a strong indicator of society's take on the issue. I'm not arguing that programmers get no respect (they do pretty well among non-prestigious trades). I'm arguing that programmers are not perceived as belonging to the same…

It has nothing to do with respect. Parents in most cases do not understand technology, much less programming whereas they can understand what an attorney or doctor does. The lawyer can keep you out of jail. The doctor can keep you from dying. What the heck does a programmer do that's so important? Note - I'm a programmer. I'm just look at it from their position. Then again, I live in Silicon Valley. When I say I write iPhone apps nobody looks down on me --- in fact quite the opposite.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#115

Post by marcomonteiro » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 12:14 PM UTC

patio11 wrote: post #67

There are many people who sling code who make as much as a doctor or partner at a law firm. More than a few people on HN fit that description, actually. A partner at a law firm is a businessman first and an individual producer of lawyering second. He has people to do that for him. Many - but not all - ways to do extraordinarily well as a programmer involve becoming a businessman first and a code slinger forty-second.…

"If I had reputational stock I'd be IPOing right now." I love that! lol

I'm sure that I'm a little biased living in Silicon Valley but here being a geek and being sexy is not mutually exclusive. Being a "programmer" is respectable but being a tech entrepreneur is respected much more.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#116

Post by iqster » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 12:18 PM UTC

wheels wrote: post #23

There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into: The core of your argument is entitled whining. Computer programmers can make truckloads of money the same way that everyone else can: by seeking it. If your professional goals are aligned with making money, then your chances of making a lot of money go way up…

"The rest of folks are compensated at prevailing market rates for their technical skills -- and incidentally, American programmers are paid better than in almost any other country."

Not so. The supply of MDs, CPAs, and lawyers is kept artificially low by accreditation bodies.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#117

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 12:22 PM UTC

jezclaremurugan wrote: post #61

One reason salary is too low for programmers, a normal engineering grad joining Infosys, TCS, Accenture, Cognizant etc. in India, is paid approx $10,000 and you guys compete with them for jobs. PS: I am an Indian, working in one of those jobs.

[deleted]

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#118

Post by baltcode » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 12:25 PM UTC

One of the big reasons that lawyers and doctors make a lot more money is because they use regulation and the coercive power of the state for the benefit of their cartel. You are going to get a top of the line lawyer and pay through the nose because your business, freedom, even your life may depend on it. The number of lawyers and doctors is limited to an artificial shortage due to bar exams and number of residency spots. Non-US bar exams and residencies, no matter how qualified, are not recognized. That means a top neurosurgeon from the most prestigious hospital in any country can not practice in the US unless he spends 6+ years in a US residency program.

Now, does that mean that programmers should clamor for more regulation in their trade? Of course not! for one, that would mean that the current lead of the US in the tech industry would be replaced by over-priced, substandard products and harm the culture of innovation and freedom. Instead, if many of these regulations in other areas were brought down, young programmers making 60k won't have to pay exhorbitant sums for simple things like getting a root canal or registering a business or fighting off patent harassment.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#119

Post by oldpond » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 12:26 PM UTC

Interesting post. I have to agree with you that there is something wrong with our line of business. I think part of the problem is that we are still feeling the affects of the "lights out operations" fad from the nineties. This was when "Big IT" convinced all the companies to automate an outsource. That's when we first became a liability to our companies instead of an asset. Since then there's been a couple of distractions in the IT industry (Y2K, dot.com bubble, and the current get-rich-with-the-cloud phase), but for the most part I still feel business sees us as an unfortunate necessity. My kids have had a keyboard in front of them since they could sit up straight, but neither of them are interested in an IT career. I think we are a lot like plumbers now; everyone wants a flush toilet, but nobody wants to deal with the pipes.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#120

Post by iqster » Wed, Aug 24, 2011, 12:27 PM UTC

ericd wrote: post #45

throwaway37 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Firstly, if you disagree, that's fine. But saying my arguments are "entitled whining" isn't disagreement, it's name calling. DH0, to use Paul Graham's phrase. Secondly, some of my arguments might be wrong, but I provide numbers and evidence to back them up. "Likewise, programmers who define their goals economically (which broadly includes creating value for users) have nearly unparalleled earning potential." Evidence…

Many of the top programmers at Google are making much more than you mentioned in your post. The amount you mentioned is more in line with a ~20 something there, in total compensation. A Bachelors degree does not compare to medical school + residency (they also have to get a bachelor's before starting those two). While you're making money for 8 years at a comfortable 9-6, they're spending over 100k to train themselves…

Also don't forget debt. Most MDs and DDSs I know in the US have 350K+ of debt. On top of that, they have to worry about malpractice suits. The work is very demanding physically and emotionally. While I can work from home on a rainy day, a doctor can't.