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If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

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Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#41

Post by kenver »

My girlfriend's a finance lawyer for a really big firm, she earns about 50% more than me and I image that in a couple of years will probably earn even more.

To get this she is required to work any weekend clients need her to (even if it means cancelling a planned holiday), any evening they need her to (pretty much all of them) and she has to read boring stuff constantly.

I on the other hand finish work after my 40 hours and go home. If I want to get some extra work I'll ask a couple of contacts if anything is going and go to the cafe with a couple of beers and have some coding fun.

I don't accept that we earn a lot less than other professionals. My pay/hours is certainly comparable to any other professional in the area I work, and I love doing what I do. If I ever earn $500,000 I'm pretty sure the hours I put in will be astronomical, and if that happens I'll probably die before I get to spend the money anyway.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#42

Post by throwaway37 »

alsoathrowaway wrote: post #8

I think you're misrepresenting a few things, so I'll take a stab at it: 1. Senior software engineers at Google in Mountain View make over $200k all told. 2. Senior software engineer is in the middle of the Google ladder. The bulk of engineers at Google are senior level, so it's not special. The very best engineers make more. 3. You are vastly overstating the salary and difficulty of other fields. 3a. Doctor - You hav…

1-3). Citation needed. Especially for Google salaries. I personally know a number of Google engineers, one of whom has been in software since 1994, and they've told me what they make.

3a) - 3b). True, but I was comparing the top bankers/consultants to the top programmers. Remember that Google is the very top, #1 software company to work for - it's only fair to compare Google engineers to, say, mid-level bankers at Goldman Sachs. If you want to compare average people, you'd have to look at, say, programmers at Wells Fargo or something.

4). That's essentially luck. If it isn't luck, please explain why the median VC loses money. Either a). average programmers must be better at picking winners than average VCs, who (if not as smart) have decades of experience and spend hundreds of hours on it rather than ten minutes deciding between job offers, or b). an average programmer shouldn't exercise their startup stock options, because they'll expect to lose money on net.

5). Definitely true, and it's why I'm a programmer myself. But it doesn't address my points.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#43

Post by hessenwolf »

benmmurphy wrote: post #33
wheels wrote: post #23

There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into: The core of your argument is entitled whining. Computer programmers can make truckloads of money the same way that everyone else can: by seeking it. If your professional goals are aligned with making money, then your chances of making a lot of money go way up…

he does have a point. lawyers and doctors both work in industries that are protected. anybody can come off the street and start slinging code. you can't come off the street and start lawyering and doing surgery even if you were more capable than the average doctor or lawyer.

Those protections stifle innovation... can we not ask for them too loudly please just in case somebody gets an idea for an IT Professional Institute?

The actuarial profession is protected here, and fuck does that make it difficult to get a decent actuary who can also program.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#44

Post by nostrademons »

anonymoushn wrote: post #30
mendocino wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Salary? Sure. But if you include bonuses and other compensation that doesn't seem too far fetched for Google, Facebook, Apple and the like...

What's "Other compensation?" I don't think bonuses usually total $50K at these companies.

Bonuses + stock options + RSUs + perks can easily total $50K. Sometimes more.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#45

Post by ericd »

throwaway37 wrote: post #29
wheels wrote: post #23

There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into: The core of your argument is entitled whining. Computer programmers can make truckloads of money the same way that everyone else can: by seeking it. If your professional goals are aligned with making money, then your chances of making a lot of money go way up…

Firstly, if you disagree, that's fine. But saying my arguments are "entitled whining" isn't disagreement, it's name calling. DH0, to use Paul Graham's phrase. Secondly, some of my arguments might be wrong, but I provide numbers and evidence to back them up. "Likewise, programmers who define their goals economically (which broadly includes creating value for users) have nearly unparalleled earning potential." Evidence…

Many of the top programmers at Google are making much more than you mentioned in your post. The amount you mentioned is more in line with a ~20 something there, in total compensation.

A Bachelors degree does not compare to medical school + residency (they also have to get a bachelor's before starting those two). While you're making money for 8 years at a comfortable 9-6, they're spending over 100k to train themselves and performing physically and mentally exhausting work.

Also, in the medical profession, those in primary care don't make the huge amounts you posted - many are below 200k, some far below. It's the specialists that you're thinking of.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#46

Post by kayoone »

Doctors, Lawyers etc usually work and bill by the hour. Be a top software consultant and you can make $200k-500k a year as "easy" as those other fields. Of course its still not easy to make $500k a year, but it also isnt that easy for the other jobs you mentioned. You need to be really good, have good clients with deep pockets who have lots of work for you and its probably easier to reach that kind of money than with other jobs.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#47

Post by mnutt »

deleo wrote: post #15
billconan wrote: post #7

agriculture is important, crucial and fundamental to human beings, while farmers don't usually get paid too much. Maybe lawyers shouldn't get that much money. Sometimes, they just don't contribute to humankind. Look at the patent war. Maybe programmers are underpaid, But I think someones else are overpaid.

It's not that lawyers are overpaid, it's just that they don't compete with the world for prices and they all agree on certain prices in their own market. You can't outsource a lawyer to India because he most likely doesn't know US law. Also we programmer have this extraordinarily poor ability to SELL ourselves. We should try to factor in the time we bill the time it took us to get to that kind of knowledge we have, l…

There's no reason a lawyer in India couldn't learn US law. He probably wouldn't even start very far behind US citizen. The real problem is that he can't set foot in a US courtroom without a visa.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#48

Post by Flenser »

kenver wrote: post #41

My girlfriend's a finance lawyer for a really big firm, she earns about 50% more than me and I image that in a couple of years will probably earn even more. To get this she is required to work any weekend clients need her to (even if it means cancelling a planned holiday), any evening they need her to (pretty much all of them) and she has to read boring stuff constantly. I on the other hand finish work after my 40 ho…

she earns about 50% more than me

per hour or per year?

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#49

Post by BasDirks »

As a doctor, however, someone like this - a top professional at the peak of their career - would probably make about $400,000.

Yes, but doctors have the most important skills I can think of. Don't think so? I'll come ask again when one of your family members gets cancer.

Coding and hacking have yet to grow to anywhere near their potential awesomeness.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#50

Post by jmra »

The world runs on electricity, education, petrol, food, construction, clothers... what is really happening and what Andreesen should be saying is that now software is totally mainstream, not a hobbie or a hackers thing. And as so, we are part of society. But, you know, most people work in important industries and yet doesn't have the respect they deserve. Think in food supply or water supply, when was the last time you found someone famous related to water suply, which who was awarded and so?
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