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If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

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Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#21

agriculture is important, crucial and fundamental to human beings, while farmers don't usually get paid too much. Maybe lawyers shouldn't get that much money. Sometimes, they just don't contribute to humankind. Look at the patent war. Maybe programmers are underpaid, But I think someones else are overpaid.

China is not on the right track, that's for sure.

I'm a Chinese student. Believe me, I abandoned Chinese food for Carl's Jr for good reasons. China is not on a right track.

China was an inferior student of the class, he used to get F for his final exams, but now he has improved to C or may be B, Admittedly he has been improving really fast, but this is because he was so bad that he had a large room to improve. How hard to improve from A to A+?

You mentioned that Chinese leaders are engineers, that's true. But I can tell you why, because 25 years ago, there was no such thing called "finance" in China. Did they have it in the Soviet Union? North Korea? Cuba? Also, in a country without a real legal system, why would people want to be a lawyer?

Those Chinese leaders became leaders, not because they are excellent engineers, but because they have connections. In fact, I seriously doubt how they got their engineering degrees.

I agree with you that engineers should play more role in politics and government. I'm willing to see more presidents with engineering backgrounds.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#22
Dare I say it... but could part of the problem be a complete lack of unions? Not to suggest every programmer who wants a job needs to join a union, but AFAIK there are very little programming jobs which are part of a union. Here are some thoughts.

The reason hockey players have agents is because the hockey players focus on playing hockey, while the agent focuses on understanding how much value the player brings to the team, and tries to extract at the margin the price a team is willing to play. Likewise with unions, they have negotiators who understand the value that these employees bring, and try to extract how much the company is willing to pay these employees at the margin to still turn acceptable profits.

Programmers do not seem to have this - many program because they enjoy it, and companies take advantage of this fact. I believe many doctors are part of organized unions, as well as other engineering professions. I do not suggest that startups should have unions, but maybe unions should be introduced into companies which employ a large number of software engineers, that way they can worry about coding, and the union can worry about salaries being fair. Thoughts?

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#23
There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into:

The core of your argument is entitled whining.

Computer programmers can make truckloads of money the same way that everyone else can: by seeking it. If your professional goals are aligned with making money, then your chances of making a lot of money go way up. Top lawyers aren't paid the most because they know the law the best; that's ancillary. They're paid big bucks because they win money for their clients, prevent their clients from losing money and build networks to people that have money to give them. Likewise, programmers who define their goals economically (which broadly includes creating value for users) have nearly unparalleled earning potential.

8 of the 20 richest people in America are (or have been, at least nominally) programmers.

The crux of things is that you don't get rich for being a skilled technician -- and I use that word broadly. Lawyers don't get rich for knowing the law, bankers don't get rich for understanding economics and programmers don't get rich for slinging code. You get rich by creating value (or at least tying yourself at an opportune moment to a benefactor whose goals are so aligned).

The rest of folks are compensated at prevailing market rates for their technical skills -- and incidentally, American programmers are paid better than in almost any other country.

But claiming that "computer programmers don't get respect" is broken on so many levels. First, computer programmers are certainly among the most respected trades. You need to interact with a broader cross-section of society if you believe that not to be the case. Second, the baseline for becoming a programmer isn't very high -- certainly nothing on the order of becoming a doctor or lawyer. The median programmer has jumped over far fewer hurdles than the median doctor or lawyer. (I got my first programming job at 17. I'd have needed another decade of non-trivial training before I'd have been able to get a job as a doctor.) The spectrum is far broader for programmers, and as such, the respect a programmer commands has more to do with their actual status within those ranks than simply being a part of that trade. But again, the spectrum extends up to "richest person in the world", so we're hardly being shafted.

If being respected among the elite is something that you want, align your goals with that. If it's not, enjoy the fact that you're in a trade where even untrained, mediocre practitioners reach the top 10% of American incomes.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#24
post #15

agriculture is important, crucial and fundamental to human beings, while farmers don't usually get paid too much. Maybe lawyers shouldn't get that much money. Sometimes, they just don't contribute to humankind. Look at the patent war. Maybe programmers are underpaid, But I think someones else are overpaid.

It's not that lawyers are overpaid, it's just that they don't compete with the world for prices and they all agree on certain prices in their own market. You can't outsource a lawyer to India because he most likely doesn't know US law. Also we programmer have this extraordinarily poor ability to SELL ourselves. We should try to factor in the time we bill the time it took us to get to that kind of knowledge we have, l…

right. Software engineering is a global thing.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#26
post #23

There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into: The core of your argument is entitled whining. Computer programmers can make truckloads of money the same way that everyone else can: by seeking it. If your professional goals are aligned with making money, then your chances of making a lot of money go way up…

Thank you, more or less exactly what I wanted to say, but I found it difficult to find the right words.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#27
post #4

There are a number of points I'd like to disagree with, but to start: - $150,000 is much less than a top-flight engineer like the one you're describing might make; it's not out of the realm of possibility for what an engineer with a good pedigree might make his first year out of school, if he went to work for a big company. - The engineer went to school for four/five/six years and then went to work. The doctor who ea…

150K right out of school? I've never heard of anyone making that much in the valley, maybe 100K tops.

Salary? Sure. But if you include bonuses and other compensation that doesn't seem too far fetched for Google, Facebook, Apple and the like...

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#29
post #23

There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into: The core of your argument is entitled whining. Computer programmers can make truckloads of money the same way that everyone else can: by seeking it. If your professional goals are aligned with making money, then your chances of making a lot of money go way up…

Firstly, if you disagree, that's fine. But saying my arguments are "entitled whining" isn't disagreement, it's name calling. DH0, to use Paul Graham's phrase.

Secondly, some of my arguments might be wrong, but I provide numbers and evidence to back them up.

"Likewise, programmers who define their goals economically (which broadly includes creating value for users) have nearly unparalleled earning potential."

Evidence? If you're talking about startups, I already covered that. Read the post.

"and incidentally, American programmers are paid better than in almost any other country."

This is sophistry. American Xs are paid better than non-American Xs because America has a high GDP per capita, pretty much regardless of X.

"First, computer programmers are certainly among the most respected trades."

Citation? And, adjusted for IQ, skill, hours worked, degrees earned, and so on?

"If it's not, enjoy the fact that you're in a trade where even untrained, mediocre practitioners reach the top 10% of American incomes."

Citation? Do you even know what the top 10% is? Here's a hint: The average salary of a computer programmer in the US is $75,000 (cite: http://www.collegeboard.com/csearch/majors_careers/profiles/...). Most of those have college degrees in computer science or other technical fields, they certainly aren't "untrained". And 90th percentile income is higher than that even including people who don't have jobs (cite: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_income_in_the_United_S...).

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

150K right out of school? I've never heard of anyone making that much in the valley, maybe 100K tops.

Salary? Sure. But if you include bonuses and other compensation that doesn't seem too far fetched for Google, Facebook, Apple and the like...

What's "Other compensation?" I don't think bonuses usually total $50K at these companies.
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