Live data from Hacker News

If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

news.ycombinator.com

11–20 of 276 posts

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#11
post #4

There are a number of points I'd like to disagree with, but to start: - $150,000 is much less than a top-flight engineer like the one you're describing might make; it's not out of the realm of possibility for what an engineer with a good pedigree might make his first year out of school, if he went to work for a big company. - The engineer went to school for four/five/six years and then went to work. The doctor who ea…

150K right out of school? I've never heard of anyone making that much in the valley, maybe 100K tops.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#12
post #9

One of the many differences between programming and medicine, law, etc is that entry into the latter fields is tightly controlled by governing bodies. Anybody can read a programming book and start working, but only so many law students graduate each year. So in that sense it's not that programmers' salaries are artificially low, it's that those other professions pay artificially well.

At least in the U.S., there is no effective pressure by the profession to keep the number of practicing lawyers low.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#13
We don't get any respect because people respect those with power (notoriously not programmers) and those who can put on a good show (sport stars, politicians, celebrities).

Carrying the world on ones shoulders (if that is indeed what programmers do) is not something that gives respect.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#14
I think you make several excellent points, and I unexpectedly found myself agreeing with you. I thought $150k was a lot of money, but had never stopped to think about the fact that the other alumni of my school who became doctors are making far more.

I think the reason we're seeing this is that programming has been commoditized quite successfully by an industry that saw they needed programmers but that did not know how to judge the quality of a programmer. Doctors certainly vary greatly in quality, but doctors are unionized after a fashion by the AMA, and they have managed to put into place artificial supply controls (regulation and licensure) that keep incomes higher.

The software development industry has gone the other way- instead of limiting the number of programmers (not necessarily a good thing, but it would boost incomes) we've developed quite a bit of process to try and make programmers interchangeable. I'm talking about much of the "best practice" and even the entire attitude that programmers should not be "lone guns" but part of a homogenous collective of coders. Everything from pair programming to test driven development to code reviews serves the process of making programmers homogenous and interchangeable, and thus more easily replaceable.

I also think that the Legal and Medical and Finance professions have developed for centuries in an environment where they were able to artificially limit the number of practitioners, and artificially boost the "Establishment credibility" that they received. I don't think most politicians are lawyers because lawyers are good leaders, but because lawyers were able to establish that career path as one of their own.

Software development, in contrast, is much newer, and currently is much closer to a free market.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#15

agriculture is important, crucial and fundamental to human beings, while farmers don't usually get paid too much. Maybe lawyers shouldn't get that much money. Sometimes, they just don't contribute to humankind. Look at the patent war. Maybe programmers are underpaid, But I think someones else are overpaid.

It's not that lawyers are overpaid, it's just that they don't compete with the world for prices and they all agree on certain prices in their own market. You can't outsource a lawyer to India because he most likely doesn't know US law. Also we programmer have this extraordinarily poor ability to SELL ourselves. We should try to factor in the time we bill the time it took us to get to that kind of knowledge we have, like pharma companies factor in the cost of research and then sell a single blue pill at 20US a pop!

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#16
In my opinion, software is a risky business, like hollywood. You probably can act better than Depp but you are struggling because you have not yet been noticed or given an opportunity.

Your best bet is to love doing what you are doing - acting or programming. Also plan your life according to what you are making and be content. Leave the rest to fate.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#18
I think one of the reasons programmers are not paid as much is that by and large, we are seen as interchangeable cogs. There are definitely exceptions, but I think the companies that think this way are large enough to set the market rate. For example, I used to work for a large defense company that probably had more software engineers than every startup in the world combined (we hired 10% of all CS graduates in the country every year). The prevailing attitude was to pay as little as they could get away with because there is always some new naive college CS grad to replace those who left.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#19

I think you're misrepresenting a few things, so I'll take a stab at it: 1. Senior software engineers at Google in Mountain View make over $200k all told. 2. Senior software engineer is in the middle of the Google ladder. The bulk of engineers at Google are senior level, so it's not special. The very best engineers make more. 3. You are vastly overstating the salary and difficulty of other fields. 3a. Doctor - You hav…

+1 for the 5th point. I had to read a few contracts and I was utterly convinced that I wasn't paying my lawyer enough as he had to read this horrible stuff every day.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#20

I think you're misrepresenting a few things, so I'll take a stab at it: 1. Senior software engineers at Google in Mountain View make over $200k all told. 2. Senior software engineer is in the middle of the Google ladder. The bulk of engineers at Google are senior level, so it's not special. The very best engineers make more. 3. You are vastly overstating the salary and difficulty of other fields. 3a. Doctor - You hav…

I think reason #5 is a big one. Most of my friends in banking, law, etc know they are trading happiness for money, and accept that.
Post reply on HN