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If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

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Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#71
post #48
post #41

My girlfriend's a finance lawyer for a really big firm, she earns about 50% more than me and I image that in a couple of years will probably earn even more. To get this she is required to work any weekend clients need her to (even if it means cancelling a planned holiday), any evening they need her to (pretty much all of them) and she has to read boring stuff constantly. I on the other hand finish work after my 40 ho…

she earns about 50% more than me per hour or per year?

About 50% per year. If you work it out hourly, I do better. I know I'd hate to work the hours she does though. I prefer to choose when I want to do extra work and have time for personal projects and other things.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#72
post #23

There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into: The core of your argument is entitled whining. Computer programmers can make truckloads of money the same way that everyone else can: by seeking it. If your professional goals are aligned with making money, then your chances of making a lot of money go way up…

he does have a point. lawyers and doctors both work in industries that are protected. anybody can come off the street and start slinging code. you can't come off the street and start lawyering and doing surgery even if you were more capable than the average doctor or lawyer.

Consider this quote from http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/06/writestuff.html about the Space Shuttle software (which has been on Hacker News before)...

"""But how much work the software does is not what makes it remarkable. What makes it remarkable is how well the software works. This software never crashes. It never needs to be re-booted. This software is bug-free. It is perfect, as perfect as human beings have achieved. Consider these stats : the last three versions of the program -- each 420,000 lines long-had just one error each. The last 11 versions of this software had a total of 17 errors. Commercial programs of equivalent complexity would have 5,000 errors.

"""This software is the work of 260 women and men based in an anonymous office building across the street from the Johnson Space Center in Clear Lake, Texas, southeast of Houston. They work for the "on-board shuttle group," a branch of Lockheed Martin Corps space mission systems division, and their prowess is world renowned: the shuttle software group is one of just four outfits in the world to win the coveted Level 5 ranking of the federal governments Software Engineering Institute (SEI) a measure of the sophistication and reliability of the way they do their work. In fact, the SEI based it standards in part from watching the on-board shuttle group do its work."""

Perhaps change the law to make companies legally liable for software quality and losses arising from it. Even require software to meet a certain SEI ranking, depending on the industry. Of course you need a phase in process. Eventually, salaries for software workers would rise.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#73
"To be one of the highest-paid, most-wanted jobs. It isn't. Why not"

Because the barriers to entry are really low and there is a vast supply of people willing to have a go.

And, I have to say, compared to many fields most development isn't actually that difficult - I suspect a reasonably intelligent and motivated person could probably be trained to do 95% of all development jobs within a year or so.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#74
I think one issue that maybe takes into account is that all the professions mentioned that do have respect (except wall street bankers of course) are professions that directly interact with people.

Software Engineers on the other hand build a product, which faces the user, but you never really get to see the programmer or interact with him. Our impact on society is a second step from the software that we create.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#75
post #23

There are a lot of very fundamental misunderstandings of economics and labor structures in here. But I'll start with the general objection that you'll run into: The core of your argument is entitled whining. Computer programmers can make truckloads of money the same way that everyone else can: by seeking it. If your professional goals are aligned with making money, then your chances of making a lot of money go way up…

Firstly, if you disagree, that's fine. But saying my arguments are "entitled whining" isn't disagreement, it's name calling. DH0, to use Paul Graham's phrase. Secondly, some of my arguments might be wrong, but I provide numbers and evidence to back them up. "Likewise, programmers who define their goals economically (which broadly includes creating value for users) have nearly unparalleled earning potential." Evidence…

But saying my arguments are "entitled whining" isn't disagreement, it's name calling.

Actually it's not. Name calling would be if I called you an entitled whiner. There's a difference between attacking your argument and attacking you. (And if we're sticking to the taxonomy, that part of my comment would be DH2, "responding to tone".)

Evidence?

That was the crux of my post. Programmers do get filthy rich (usually via starting tech companies). You're right that at that point they're not programming, but that's because programming in isolation has limited economic value. Using the skills one acquires as a programmer and aiming them at value creation has created a large chunk of America's billionaires. And while that phenomenon is not unique to programming in the least -- in fact, it holds across almost any skilled trade (i.e. soft-skills begin to dominate hard-skills) -- the upper bound is demonstrably higher for programming (as evidenced by the list of richest Americans) than it is for almost any field.

American Xs are paid better than non-American Xs because America has a high GDP per capita

No, I meant relative to GDP per capita. I live in Germany where programmer salaries are about 50% above the GDP per capita, whereas in the US it's about 75%. From what I've gathered, in the UK, it's closer to 25%.

Citation?

It's nigh on impossible to measure "respect" in some sort of meaningful way, but here's a list from a couple seconds of Googling on the "Best Jobs in America":

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/moneymag/bestjobs/2010/full_l...

  1: Software Architect
  7: Database Administrator
  18: Software Engineering / Development Director
  20: Information Technology Manager
  21: Telecommunications Network Engineer
  24: Network Operations Project Manager
  26: Information Technology Business Analyst
  30: Test Software Development Engineer
  31: Information Technology Network Engineer
  33: Information Technology Program Manager
  38: Applications Engineer
Your citation for the average programmer salary is from 2005. Salaries have gone up significantly since then. Even just adjusting for inflation (and ignoring the recent IT boom) puts it above the 10% ($82,500) bar. I have no idea what percentage of programmers hold computer science degrees, but it's certainly not "all" and I wouldn't be surprised if it's not "most".

One of the things that's somewhat endemic to your case is shifting back and forth between comparing the median with the top tier. Average doctors, bankers and lawyers aren't making the salaries you suggested. Median programmers aren't particularly impressive.

Let's split it out:

Elite programmers do things like start software companies, work at corporate research labs, work in financial engineering or work on high-profile open source projects. Those folks command respect and have high earning potential. (Though interestingly, among the elite of these groups, programmers probably have the lowest percentage of completed formal training.)

Elite investment bankers are measured heavily on their returns and a large portion of their compensation is bonuses. Elite lawyers are measured on their returns (wins) and compensated to a significant extent relative to their non-legal social skills (i.e. their network).

Median programmers write intellectually trivial code that solves uninteresting problems. Training is optional and there are virtually no systematic hurdles to cross to enter the trade. They still make relatively high salaries relative to societal norms.

Median lawyers work on intellectually trivial cases. Formal training and certification is required and compensation is relatively high, but nothing that will generate notable wealth. Median investment bankers (my father would have been in said category) mostly convince a handful of clients they've been given by their organization to invest in a 90% cookie cutter portfolio and are compensated reasonably well -- varying largely on their ability to source their own clients. (But first year run of the mill stock brokers probably make less than first year run of the mill programmers.) Formal training is theoretically optional (though there's a de facto requirement of a degree in something) and formal certification is required. Again, no notable wealth is generated in this category.

At the low end, the gap isn't particularly wide between these groups. At the high end, folks from finance and programming backgrounds comprise a disproportionately large percentage of the economic ultra-elite and lawyers of the political ultra-elite. It still bewilders me that given that demonstrable fact, that you'd brand our profession as not getting any respect.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#76
post #68
post #14

I think you make several excellent points, and I unexpectedly found myself agreeing with you. I thought $150k was a lot of money, but had never stopped to think about the fact that the other alumni of my school who became doctors are making far more. I think the reason we're seeing this is that programming has been commoditized quite successfully by an industry that saw they needed programmers but that did not know h…

"but had never stopped to think about the fact that the other alumni of my school who became doctors are making far more." A CS degree, which many programmers don't even have, takes 4 years. There are quite a few 'programming' jobs for which having a CS degree is being overqualified , but let's say that a CS degree is the baseline. To become an MD, with the specialties that pay the amounts mentioned here, one needs t…

I honestly think that most people in the software field have no idea of the level of personal responsibility that junior doctors and lawyers are given and what that can mean in terms of stress levels.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#77
post #64

I'm partial to some of this, but since others here have covered other problems with your argument, I'll limit myself to one of your points that hasn't been dealt with. You say: Is it good for the country that Silicon Valley, arguably the best-performing sector of the economy, has next to no influence in politics Next to no influence in politics? Seriously? All the major software companies (GOOG, MSFT, APPL) spend eno…

I work in DC. Outside of telecom, tech is very under-represented and is ineffective at manipulating the levers of power. It is getting better, but to put Google's 12 people into perspective, the AMA has over 200 DC lobbying staff.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#78
> Given how important [education] is, then, you'd expect [teachers] ... to be one of the highest-paid, most-wanted jobs. It isn't. Why not?

The wages for teachers and programmers are set the same way as the price for any good, e.g. bananas.

Not by vague notions of importance, value, or respect, but by supply or demand.

When people start arguing that foo good (profession) with a low price (wage) is inherently more important than bar good, I think of a person arguing that bananas are more important than apples and should have a higher price, disregarding their supply and demand differences.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#79
"Are programmers top government advisors? Are they national heroes? Do doctors and lawyers and policemen tell their children that, if they work hard and practice, one day they can grow up to be a programmer? No. Obviously not."

No. Because a majority of people don't like software, programmers and automation. They don't see programmers as an example because they don't want it to be this way.

1) They are perceived as eating their jobs. You can explain increased productivity all day, but someone out of a job due to a computer program curses you.

2) It is hard to understand for laymen what they actually do. A doctor's jargon is also hard to understand, but at least solves problems visible to most.

A lot of people are borderline-luddites, others are more compromising and like applied technology as long as it serves them. But very few, I think only scientists and programmers (and the people that get rich from them) actually like where the world is going.

Not that it is possible to stop the software eating the world... It could be that the problem will solve itself, eventually, because the more of the world is 'eaten' by computers and software, the more powerful the people controlling them will be.

Re: If Software Is Eating The World, Why Don't Coders Get Any Respect?

#80

Dare I say it... but could part of the problem be a complete lack of unions? Not to suggest every programmer who wants a job needs to join a union, but AFAIK there are very little programming jobs which are part of a union. Here are some thoughts. The reason hockey players have agents is because the hockey players focus on playing hockey, while the agent focuses on understanding how much value the player brings to th…

Thread winner right here. CEO's have no problem making more and more even though many of the productivity gains are coming from us. The issue is absolutely that we have no representation.
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