no DMCA in Netherlands?
[deleted]
Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data
61–70 of 115 posts
Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data
#62Earlier quoted context omitted.
> So the question about this accident is: how obvious is it for the driver what is going on and what assistance to expect. - you have to deliberately turn the full assistance on/off - there are audio cues when it turns on, and whilst it’s on, and when it turns off - the visuals on the screen are different when it’s on vs. off - the steering wheel feels very different when it’s on - when it’s on, there are regular cue…
So we're down to small UI differences on the dashboard, and having the driver notice the control forces...
…and multiple audio cues.
Not being facetious, but aren’t audio, visual (=the dashboard), and touch (=control forces) the only ways a human is able to interact with a car?
They could make the engagement or not of FSD more obvious in the UI, and maybe have spoken alerts? (Although at the moment there are so many audio alerts in a Tesla, I think it’s approaching saturation - the point where if everything is an alarm, then nothing is an alarm…)
Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data
#63no DMCA in Netherlands?
To answer the point that I think you were actually making, reverse engineering in the EU is covered by EU Directive 2009/24. This allows reverse-engineering for interoperability purposes, and (possibly in a more limited way?) also for the purposes of understanding the operation of a program.
https://vidstromlabs.com/blog/the-legal-boundaries-of-revers...
Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data
#64Frankly I feel that for this kind of investication (car crashes and accidents) the manufacturer should be required to hand over all data relevant to the investigation. On device logs are probably the most relevant data you could get in these cases. That this lab decided to try to decipher the data, and found troves of it that wasn't known to exist before, speaks to how the relationship must be. They didn't trust Tesl…
I’d go further, and say that the data should be exportable in a predefined format (ideally an open standard), so that investigators can use 3rd party tools to investigate any make of ‘smart car’.
I feel like the owner should get access rather than institutes or the manufacturers. Anyone else should figure it out with said owner.
Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data
#65Frankly I feel that for this kind of investication (car crashes and accidents) the manufacturer should be required to hand over all data relevant to the investigation. On device logs are probably the most relevant data you could get in these cases. That this lab decided to try to decipher the data, and found troves of it that wasn't known to exist before, speaks to how the relationship must be. They didn't trust Tesl…
I’d go further, and say that the data should be exportable in a predefined format (ideally an open standard), so that investigators can use 3rd party tools to investigate any make of ‘smart car’.
In the first place, the owners of the cars should have full read access to all data that their car generates.
Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
DMCA is just a letter format for removal of content per U.S. law. Any country that observes copyright (they are apart of the WTO) is expected to comply with other member nations' copyrights. All developed countries have also adopted the Berne Convention.
It’s actually exactly the other way around: countries don’t comply with other countries’ copyrights, but they must offer the same level of protection to authors of works created abroad as they give to authors of works created locally (I.e. non-discrimination of foreign works/authors). And they must also offer a minimum level of copyright protection as specified in the convention. The egregious content removal remedie…
If you think that the US is (relatively) insane when it comes to this, you have never witnessed the German equivalent (which is much more complainant-friendly).
Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data
#67Earlier quoted context omitted.
I’d go further, and say that the data should be exportable in a predefined format (ideally an open standard), so that investigators can use 3rd party tools to investigate any make of ‘smart car’.
I feel like the owner should get access rather than institutes or the manufacturers. Anyone else should figure it out with said owner.
Hah, you were a minute faster. :)
Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data
#68Frankly I feel that for this kind of investication (car crashes and accidents) the manufacturer should be required to hand over all data relevant to the investigation. On device logs are probably the most relevant data you could get in these cases. That this lab decided to try to decipher the data, and found troves of it that wasn't known to exist before, speaks to how the relationship must be. They didn't trust Tesl…
I’d go further, and say that the data should be exportable in a predefined format (ideally an open standard), so that investigators can use 3rd party tools to investigate any make of ‘smart car’.
I'd go further still, the telemetry data should be standardised the same way OBD-II interfaces are. Open source the tech, or at least disclose it to researchers upon request.
Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
The original article in Dutch https://www.forensischinstituut.nl/actueel/nieuws/2021/10/21... and google translate to English https://www-forensischinstituut-nl.translate.goog/actueel/ni...
Thanks! And the conference publication with technical details: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/355202701_Reverse_e...
Couldn't find the DOI. Anyone?
Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data
#70no DMCA in Netherlands?
No, but they do have the GDPR, which affords data subjects the right of access to their own personal data.
Seeing as “the vehicles also record speed, accelerator pedal position, steering wheel angle and brake usage” and that personal data is "information that relates to an identified or identifiable individual", that sounds in scope of GDPR to me. I’d like to know what lawful basis they are using for this. I can see no other valid basis other than consent.
Tesla being less than forthcoming about what personal data they are processing is likely also problematic when it comes to the right to be informed too.