What if not all sensor data is accurate or reliable? For example their new cars have no radar and therefore the distance is just an assumption of the AI model and can be wrong. It would be pretty bad to rely on unreliable data for the justice system. If they want to use all data I assume some form of interpretation should be done by the Tesla to avoid false positives or false negatives. Especially in crashes where FSD was driving.
Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data
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Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data
#22Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data
#23Earlier quoted context omitted.
"The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) is a 1998 United States copyright law." Last time I checked the Netherlands was a different country. lol By the way: https://www.websiteplanet.com/blog/dmca-ignored-countries/
DMCA is just a letter format for removal of content per U.S. law. Any country that observes copyright (they are apart of the WTO) is expected to comply with other member nations' copyrights. All developed countries have also adopted the Berne Convention.
It’s actually exactly the other way around: countries don’t comply with other countries’ copyrights, but they must offer the same level of protection to authors of works created abroad as they give to authors of works created locally (I.e. non-discrimination of foreign works/authors). And they must also offer a minimum level of copyright protection as specified in the convention. The egregious content removal remedies offered by the DMCA in the US are luckily not part of those minimum protections, so most sane countries have a more balanced procedure for content removal remedies.
Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data
#24Earlier quoted context omitted.
DMCA is just a letter format for removal of content per U.S. law. Any country that observes copyright (they are apart of the WTO) is expected to comply with other member nations' copyrights. All developed countries have also adopted the Berne Convention.
And which of these treaties exactly has a problem with the reverse engineering work done here? Nobody is claiming that Tesla doesn't have copyright on their software, if that copyright allows them to restrict this work is an entirely different kettle of fish, and depending on local laws.
You're right, I don't think there was ever a DMCA claim actually made, and probably would not be valid. Just replying to the misleading statement as if copyright from other countries have no standing.
Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
And which of these treaties exactly has a problem with the reverse engineering work done here? Nobody is claiming that Tesla doesn't have copyright on their software, if that copyright allows them to restrict this work is an entirely different kettle of fish, and depending on local laws.
You're right, I don't think there was ever a DMCA claim actually made, and probably would not be valid. Just replying to the misleading statement as if copyright from other countries have no standing.
They didn't claim that copyright from other countries has no standing, but correctly pointed out that claims under other countries copyright laws are irrelevant.
Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data
#26I’m assuming Tesla don’t give you the source code to their cars. Does anyone? I’d love to have a car that can be taken apart and put back together — the engine and the UI. Not because I have the skill or shop needed to do maintenance, but because at least I stand a chance of paying someone else to. Right now it feels like I’m dealing with a bunch of pirates. I either pay $800 to hack an HDMI cable into my Audi’s virt…
I don't see an issue with source code, nor intellectual property or similar, it is all about recorded data, the whole point is that Tesla, requested according to the Law to provide the recorded data (decrypted) provided only a (small) subset of such data and the guys from the NFI managed to decrypt the whole stuff, finding out that Tesla omitted data useful to establish the reasons of the crash.
It also seems that - casually - the omitted data lead to believe that the root cause was Tesla's autoipilot making the car tailgating the one in front of it.
Imagine that an airplane crashes and the decoding of the flight recorder is carried by the airplane manufacturer that omits the part where (say) the tail rudder didn't work as it should have.
Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data
#27I’m assuming Tesla don’t give you the source code to their cars. Does anyone? I’d love to have a car that can be taken apart and put back together — the engine and the UI. Not because I have the skill or shop needed to do maintenance, but because at least I stand a chance of paying someone else to. Right now it feels like I’m dealing with a bunch of pirates. I either pay $800 to hack an HDMI cable into my Audi’s virt…
No, sadly there is no open source car avaiable (I think some designs exist, coming from univerisies, but nothing you could buy anywhere) I suppose consumers, tuners and repair shops would love it. But I do not see any big company ever going into that direction. It would be interesting, how it could avoid the patent madness. I assume EVERYTHING with cars is patented.
I've actually had the intention of building a company focused on manufacturing and selling open-source household appliances, like washing machines, fridges etc. Cars would be the endgame for a company like this.
Still in the early planning stages, just creating a good toaster that's repairable, open etc. is an interesting undertaking if you want everything above board.
Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data
#28Earlier quoted context omitted.
"The Digital Millennium Copyright Act (DMCA) is a 1998 United States copyright law." Last time I checked the Netherlands was a different country. lol By the way: https://www.websiteplanet.com/blog/dmca-ignored-countries/
DMCA is just a letter format for removal of content per U.S. law. Any country that observes copyright (they are apart of the WTO) is expected to comply with other member nations' copyrights. All developed countries have also adopted the Berne Convention.
DMCA also makes lot's of reverse engineering illegal. And that is the relevant issue here.
Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data
#29Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data
#30Frankly I feel that for this kind of investication (car crashes and accidents) the manufacturer should be required to hand over all data relevant to the investigation. On device logs are probably the most relevant data you could get in these cases.
That this lab decided to try to decipher the data, and found troves of it that wasn't known to exist before, speaks to how the relationship must be.
They didn't trust Tesla to hand everything over.
In my humble opinion, any region should force all manufacturer of cars that will be sold in that region to hand over data (or methods by extracting the data) in cases like these, lest their license to sell their product be rescinded.