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Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

reuters.com

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Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#41

Post by tdrdt »

I just read some Dutch news sources to get some more context.

Some things to know:

Tesla hands over all requested data in case of an investigation. But only the requested data. Because we now know what data is stored more data can and will be requested in the future.

The crash was caused by the driver because he thought lane assistance was turned on but only adaptive cruise control was turned on. This caused the vehicle to move to another lane.

So the question about this accident is: how obvious is it for the driver what is going on and what assistance to expect.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#42

Post by have_faith »

Roritharr wrote: post #27
hutzlibu wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, sadly there is no open source car avaiable (I think some designs exist, coming from univerisies, but nothing you could buy anywhere) I suppose consumers, tuners and repair shops would love it. But I do not see any big company ever going into that direction. It would be interesting, how it could avoid the patent madness. I assume EVERYTHING with cars is patented.

I've actually had the intention of building a company focused on manufacturing and selling open-source household appliances, like washing machines, fridges etc. Cars would be the endgame for a company like this. Still in the early planning stages, just creating a good toaster that's repairable, open etc. is an interesting undertaking if you want everything above board.

Any way I can follow your progress?

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#43

Post by Timshel »

Dinux wrote: post #34
tdrdt wrote: post #31

A lot of questions about responsibility come from this case. If autopilot was following the car too close would the driver be responsible for not taking action? How much trust is a driver allowed to put in autopilot? I also wonder how much data other cars collect. As far as I know most cars collect a lot of data you don't know about.

You can change how close you want AutoPilot to follow (between 1 and 3 car-distances) the car in front of you.

Was wondering how it works and found :

"According to Tesla, each follow distance setting corresponds directly to a time-based distance representing the time it takes the Model 3 from its current location to the location for the car in front of the driver.

For cars manufactured after April 27, 2021, Tesla set a minimum follow distance of 3 or greater. But with the 2021.4.21.3 update, this number has been reduced to 2, bringing Autopilot ‘Pure Vision’ close to parity with its previous radar-based counterpart."

Note they say time based and not second so 2 might be something like a second.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#44

Post by mft_ »

tdrdt wrote: post #41

I just read some Dutch news sources to get some more context. Some things to know: Tesla hands over all requested data in case of an investigation. But only the requested data. Because we now know what data is stored more data can and will be requested in the future. The crash was caused by the driver because he thought lane assistance was turned on but only adaptive cruise control was turned on. This caused the vehi…

> So the question about this accident is: how obvious is it for the driver what is going on and what assistance to expect.

- you have to deliberately turn the full assistance on/off

- there are audio cues when it turns on, and whilst it’s on, and when it turns off

- the visuals on the screen are different when it’s on vs. off

- the steering wheel feels very different when it’s on

- when it’s on, there are regular cues to generate torque through the wheel to show you’re paying attention

- the overall concept is that even when it’s on, you should keep your hands on the wheel and pay attention - though this is obviously subject to human failings

TBF, I’ve done something similar once or twice —-only turned on cruise control when I thought I’d turned on full assist—- but if you’ve got your hands on the wheel it’s pretty natural and quick to correct and then realise your mistake.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#45

Post by [deleted] »

tdrdt wrote: post #41

I just read some Dutch news sources to get some more context. Some things to know: Tesla hands over all requested data in case of an investigation. But only the requested data. Because we now know what data is stored more data can and will be requested in the future. The crash was caused by the driver because he thought lane assistance was turned on but only adaptive cruise control was turned on. This caused the vehi…

[deleted]

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#46

Post by mellavora »

rocqua wrote: post #29
Hamuko wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Next you'll tell me that there's no second amendment either.

We have so few bears here, so it's really hard to find bear-arms.

But you should still have the right to arm the bears if you find a bear. Maybe this is why you have such a bear shortage?

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#47

Post by petre »

jaclaz wrote: post #26
gorgoiler wrote: post #9

I’m assuming Tesla don’t give you the source code to their cars. Does anyone? I’d love to have a car that can be taken apart and put back together — the engine and the UI. Not because I have the skill or shop needed to do maintenance, but because at least I stand a chance of paying someone else to. Right now it feels like I’m dealing with a bunch of pirates. I either pay $800 to hack an HDMI cable into my Audi’s virt…

I don't see an issue with source code, nor intellectual property or similar, it is all about recorded data, the whole point is that Tesla, requested according to the Law to provide the recorded data (decrypted) provided only a (small) subset of such data and the guys from the NFI managed to decrypt the whole stuff, finding out that Tesla omitted data useful to establish the reasons of the crash. It also seems that -…

Well isn't that obstruction of justice?

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#48

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

I wish there were more information about how they were able to "decrypt" the data. I put that in quotes because often times journalists or laypeople don't differentiate between a file format that is just compressed or obfuscated in some way, and true encryption.

After all, it would be trivial for Tesla to provide essentially unbreakable encryption: just encode all the stored data with a public key where only Tesla has the corresponding private key. But if NFI was able to decrypt, they obviously don't do that, so I'm curious what manner of "encryption" is used in the car.

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#49

Post by follower »

Roritharr wrote: post #27
hutzlibu wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, sadly there is no open source car avaiable (I think some designs exist, coming from univerisies, but nothing you could buy anywhere) I suppose consumers, tuners and repair shops would love it. But I do not see any big company ever going into that direction. It would be interesting, how it could avoid the patent madness. I assume EVERYTHING with cars is patented.

I've actually had the intention of building a company focused on manufacturing and selling open-source household appliances, like washing machines, fridges etc. Cars would be the endgame for a company like this. Still in the early planning stages, just creating a good toaster that's repairable, open etc. is an interesting undertaking if you want everything above board.

I spoke about a concept related to this a few years ago in "Fair Trade Consumer Electronics with Open Hardware": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM80hQ117JM

Might have some prior art for folks interested in the topic.

It's a pretty interesting topic from both a technical & business/marketing point of view.

Couple other lists of somewhat related links:

* http://web.archive.org/web/20200119053707/http://www.labrado...

* http://web.archive.org/web/20200119061518/http://www.labrado...

* http://web.archive.org/web/20200119061518/http://www.labrado...

Re: Dutch forensic lab says it has decoded Tesla's driving data

#50

Post by the-dude »

trhway wrote: post #16
the-dude wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, it is a state lab. What are you gonna do? Invade our capital?

that is kind of the point - that they couldn't compel a private company doing business in their country and did the cracking instead.

That is just an assumption, there is nothing as far as I am aware that points in this direction.

NFI does plenty of research on its own.

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