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Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

appleinsider.com

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Re: Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

#191

Post by prepend »

devwastaken wrote: post #33
prepend wrote: post #14

I guess I’m just old school but I come from a time when I’d be fired for any negative public or even internal comments. And I’m ok with that. I’d rather just quit than try to change a company this way. Or I’d just work into leadership and make executive decisions. Or I’d start a company and do it my way. I just don’t see leadership being convinced by me complaining on Twitter or starting an internal complaint slack c…

People are okay with that because they're in a position to not have to care. Perhaps apple is correct in that this was because of deleting things they were not supposed to - but individuals advocating for a culture of "apple can do whatever because it's a company" is nodding along to union busting talking points. Tech sector has been very fortunate in the past to not have to unionize, but now as the workforce grows e…

> apple can do whatever because it's a company

I don’t think this is what I would advocate for. Me not bitching on Twitter is not the same as me not allowing Apple to do whatever they want.

Smart engineers leaving is a big deal, even for Apple. There are ways to deliver constructive criticism. I’ve done it many times, sometimes successfully. And it never involved leaking to the press or talking bad about my org.

I think there are needs for corporate governance and don’t like the “you’re either with us or against us” or equating not speaking publicly with condoning or allowing behavior. There are many other options.

Re: Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

#192

Post by prepend »

Apocryphon wrote: post #125
pgeorgi wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's a space ripe for disruption. I want to add that disruption is what huge unions excel at, so if anybody wants to keep them out of tech, the best approach might be to fill the space they'd otherwise sweep into unchallenged with a compelling organization.

Always insane to see tech workers claim that labor unions are inherently flawed and unable to innovate upon, when so much of Silicon Valley's own rhetoric is about disrupting everything else under the sun.

I don’t like absurd rules and unions seem like an out of touch project manager to the extreme. This may not be true.

But I don’t see this as a problem in tech that needs to be solved. The barriers to entry and exit are so low to me as a programmer that I think organizations already have to compete to hire and keep me. So any unions wouldn’t do much to help me and seem like an extra layer of bureaucracy that would stop me from having fun while I work.

Re: Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

#193

Post by prepend »

valtism wrote: post #134
prepend wrote: post #14

I guess I’m just old school but I come from a time when I’d be fired for any negative public or even internal comments. And I’m ok with that. I’d rather just quit than try to change a company this way. Or I’d just work into leadership and make executive decisions. Or I’d start a company and do it my way. I just don’t see leadership being convinced by me complaining on Twitter or starting an internal complaint slack c…

It's devastating that this is the top opinion coming from here. The "If you don't like it just leave" stance, whether talking about working for a company or living in a country, is so dismissive of the people who see issues and have the courage to try and change things to make it better for others.

It’s effective. As a programmer I frequently dismiss stupid, ineffective ideas. I don’t dismiss people, I dismiss their dumb ideas.

And actually, I try to improve and build with ideas.

These types of approaches seem dumb and ineffective so it’s odd to me that people would try them and be surprised at the outcome.

Doing a dumb thing doesn’t mean that I’m courageous. Conflating all dumb things with right things is weird to me.

Again, not to be old personish, but it’s ok to point out and not applaud ineffective, counterproductive techniques.

If someone comes to you and says “my goal is to improve apple” and the explains their plan to complain on Twitter and organize complaint groups inside apple, I think you would tell them that that approach is not likely to be effective (ie “dumb”). That doesn’t mean the person is bad or anything. Just that their plan is not good.

Also, using hyperbolic language like “it’s devastating” is weird to me. If this is devastating, then I want to find ways to protect you from truly devastating things in the world. It’s a great thing to be so privileged that internet discussions that you don’t agree with are devastating.

Re: Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

#194

Post by prepend »

geofft wrote: post #26
da_big_ghey wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, I am confused why the surprise that somebody bad-mouth an employer publicly and get fired for it. Ask, if you were in a business, you have a problem employee who will not stop talking to press to make a public damage against your reputation. How can you handle this when this employee will not stop? Said person is now working against your company interests and not for.

They're not working against the company's interests. They may be working against the interests of individuals in management. For public companies like Apple - and arguably for any company larger than a sole proprietorship - those aren't the same thing. (It is still true, of course, that management has the power to fire you and therefore picking fights with management is generally not good for your career. But that's…

It’s hard for us to determine what’s in the company’s best interest. It seems to me that the ex-employee was being counterproductive, but what do I know.

The organization is the best equipped to understand the best interests over a single employee.

The challenge is that many fired employees will think they are right and the company was wrong. If there’s lawbreaking then maybe a judge will decide.

It’s like asking prisoners if they are guilty. They all say not guilty. And some are right and the institution was wrong. But typically the institution is right.

With private companies that’s the trade off. Management will decide and fire.

Re: Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

#195

Post by ryandrake »

vlozko wrote: post #51
fenomas wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some Apple employees are reportedly required to link their personal iCloud with their work account/devices, so there's probably no bright line there. It could have been a personal device that was linked to her work account, or a work device linked to her personal iCloud. https://www.theverge.com/22648265/apple-employee-privacy-icl...

This is not explicitly true. They are allowed to create their an account separate from their personal one. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28242037

Even the article itself mentions this:

> Employees could pause during onboarding and say they want to create a new Apple ID specifically for work or use a different phone. But most do not.

This "Apple forces you to link personal with work" meme keeps coming up but it's evidently not entirely true.

Re: Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

#196

Post by techrat »

chipotle_coyote wrote: post #75
techrat wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We regularly BEAT on Apple. From my direct experience, anyone who speaks out against Apple's restrictive, walled garden approach and anti consumer practices gets downvoted hard and mass-flagged 'round these parts.

My direct experience is that there is a lot of skepticism about Apple on HN, much of it warranted, some of it (in my opinion, obviously) careening into unwarranted cynicism. But my observation is that comments critical of Apple that are most likely to get downvoted are ones with a clear subtext of "anyone who uses Apple products is an idiotic corporate shill who doesn't know anything about technology and it is my sol…

I think the post you replied to is a fantastic example of what I was referring to, btw.

Re: Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

#197

Post by ksec »

raspasov wrote: post #150
WORMS_EAT_WORMS wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I could go back in time and tell a younger version of myself the steps needed to work at a FAANG. I unfortunately never had the right guidance to get there and hopefully my kids one day will. I can’t complain as things worked out —- but still. I see these employee issues pop up from time to time and I guess I just don’t understand it. I’m not trying to be cruel to the people speaking out. Just I truly don’t un…

The term FAANG was created in 2013 which is not that long ago. FAANG didn't really become a super "hot" place to be until after the 2009-2011 recession. Looking back, everything is often crystal clear 20/20 vision. "Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future." - Yoda.

Google was already the super hot place to be before the recession. And Apple was the media darling even before iPhone.

Re: Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

#198

Post by pstuart »

macinjosh wrote: post #82
pstuart wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That could be interpreted as "I've got mine, Jack. Why should I give a fuck about anybody else?" This raises the question: if you only care about yourself, why should we care about you?

Because he can do well regardless of how much you do or do not care for him. Many people would very much appreciate it if other members of society cared less about them. Care is not required for humans to participate in a mutually beneficial society.

> Many people would very much appreciate it if other members of society cared less about them

Um, could you elaborate?

Re: Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

#199

Post by blitzar »

fenomas wrote: post #185
blitzar wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but you have cited an article and source that has been proven to be incorrect on the topic. You went to the effort to find said piece of information but skipped the next search result on google where tons of apple employees say 'nahh thats bullshit' 'yeah you can, but you dont have to, most managers tell you not to and only an idiot would do that'

I looked for contrary articles and didn't see any. If you have some handy, posting links to them would add a lot more to the conversation than randomly spewing invective at me.

Try HN

Re: Apple fires leader of AppleToo movement

#200

Post by the_benno »

da_big_ghey wrote: post #184
the_benno wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

because it's not a zero sum game? those union busting talking points keep you focused on your less-fortunate colleagues and and not the obscenely wealthy guy screwing the both of you over.

But if i turn over to a union there is small assurance i will not take some pay cut. I doubt people making so much are top of bargaining priority list, probably more rank-and-files level are their focus. And then I have turned over my rights to majority, so it is suck up what my coworker wants or leave. It is similar for employer, i must suck up what it want or leave, but I already known these terms are okay with emp…

This is not how unions work. (source: am union member)

Your claims and arguments are against some imagined shitty union-like thing that does not much resemble an actual union.

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