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Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

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Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#601

Post by gremIin »

djrogers wrote: post #76
rob_c wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not just US, I would say there's a large number of very well educated people even in well off countries who have a large amount of hesitation toward this mainly due to information handling and lack of transparency. (Yes there is a very vocal anti-vax nut job crowd, but frankly that will always be there, and is always different to those who object to policy decisions on moral grounds of their failings and the deaths t…

I don't think it's an issue of seeing illness as a personal failing - that's just dismissive and an unhelpful characterization. People I know that choose to not get vaccinated yet are largely resistant to the 'do it for others' push because we've been told that the vaccine is so effective that the 'others' should be safe anyway, unless they've chosen not to get the vaccine too. That leaves these people with a risk as…

What government group said that the non-vaccinated were safe anyway? Do you have a single source?

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#602

Post by supertrope »

MattGaiser wrote: post #72
mmmpop wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It feels like a game of political chicken to me. Like, "if you won't trust the voting public enough to give them the whole truth and instead treat them like blubbering fools, how can you--with a straight face--pretend that their ability to pick leaders or vote on actual issues is a correct way to run a country?" So instead of compliance, they'll bring the whole damn thing down in protest. I don't think the plurality…

> how can you--with a straight face--pretend that their ability to pick leaders or vote on actual issues is a correct way to run a country?" By arguing that the other options are worse. Democracy and the separation of powers do not result in great decision making. But it also serves as a significant barrier against absolutely horrible decision making, placing it above the other choices.

The one defining advantage of a republic is peaceful and lawful transfer of power, and limits of the exercise of that power. Any fundamental change requires legitimization via a durable political coalition. While you may be better off under an enlightened king, what happens after his lifetime? In a monarchy a new king can be weak or crueler and nothing can be done short of bloody revolution. In a direct democracy 51% of the electorate can try to strip 49% of their rights. Republics avoid a single point of failure.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#603

Post by ericd »

AareyBaba wrote: post #488
speedybird wrote: post #324

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Toilet paper scalpers... Last year I scoffed at the people buying two or three packages of toilet paper. I thought that was selfish, and refused to participate in that hysteria. Then a few weeks later, I was wiping my ass with paper towels for a month because I ran out of toilet paper and couldn't buy more. It got me thinking that I should buy a bidet. It also got me thinking that if I had been "part of the problem"…

$35 Non-Electric Bidet Toilet Attachment https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B075MMHQX7 Takes a few minutes to install. I recommend it if you don't want to spend $$$ on an electric Toto.

Like mattresses, office chairs, monitors, and other things that will get a lot of use over their lifetime, this is one of those things worth spending a little more on. Unless you're the type of person who also likes the shock of cold showers. The Totos are worth every penny.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#604

Post by clairity »

Natsu wrote: post #553
clairity wrote: post #475

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "If I was running things, I would tell people that they have no power to punish anyone whatsoever and design the Covid rules with that in mind, making them focused entirely on helping people instead of controlling them." to be fair, i agree that we should avoid punishing people for making different risk calculations, and resultant choices, because as a population, it's advantageous to have a variety of strategies e…

Well, I agree that there are valid reasons to make different risk calculations, however, part of that calculation has to be the chance of catching and spreading Covid to people who have higher risk. I personally have almost no risk from Covid. But if I don't take precautions I could easily kill grandma, who can't vaccinate, and others at the nursing home. I agree that there's no one true risk calculation for everyone…

> "...I could easily kill grandma..."

see, there's the hyperbole that makes you lose credibility. ~95% of those 65 and older in the US are vaccinated. visiting with grandma (or any family, for that matter) is an instance where wearing a mask (and certainly a number of other potential mitigations) could make a difference, so use your brain to make that assessment, not some brainless heuristic infringed upon you by an irrelevant affiliation.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#605

Post by CamperBob2 »

clairity wrote: post #593
CamperBob2 wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless I'm a qualified medical researcher, how exactly am I supposed to "examine my assumption?"

exactly how you form opinions everyday without having deep knowledge of a given domain. perhaps also read up on the appeal to authority fallacy[0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Maybe you need to do some reading. Appeal to authority is a fallacy only when the appeal is to an unrelated authority.

If I rely on public health authorities in determining how to deal with the pandemic, I'm in the clear, logically speaking.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#606

Post by Clubber »

passwordreset wrote: post #513
philovivero wrote: post #252

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. The memory-holing is already going strong. In another year, all those "now-deleted" links won't work anymore, and everyone will keep claiming the government never lied, and you'll be a nutter if you claim the government ever said masks don't work. You'll be banned from all forms of conversation, and labeled "alt-right." The techno-utopia is awesome.

The government never said that masks don't work, because "the government" is a thing which does not speak. The former US Surgeon General, Jerome Adams, who was appointed by the former president, claimed that masks don't work in his now famous tweet "STOP BUYING MASKS". Fauci did not say this; Fauci instead said that for several reasons "there’s no reason to be walking around with a mask" at that time. The White House…

>The government never said that masks don't work, because "the government" is a thing which does not speak.

The government speaks plenty, it just has many voices. All the ones you hear are specifically chosen people to speak on the government's behalf, they are even told what to say. I'm not really sure what you are trying to justify with that opener. I mean you realize people on this form are more intelligent than the general population, right?

>If you're treating the government as a solitary nebulous entity, then accountability goes out the window.

I think qualified immunity has a lot to do with it. Also the fact that most of the machine wasn't elected and runs the same way regardless of who we put into office.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#607

Post by kyleee »

hypertele-Xii wrote: post #525
kyleee wrote: post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a governance technique meant to curb excesses of the ruling elite, informed by the historical frequency of ill behaved governing bodies and their miscellaneous maltreatment of the governed

That also causes significant loss of life, both domestically and abroad. The punishment feels, to me, disproportionate to the crime. Things like having permission to shoot someone for breaking into your house.

Though a bit of a tangent, it's quite reasonable to be able to use force against an intruder in your own house. At least in the US the police have no duty to protect or even respond, and depending on location may be many minutes or even tens of minutes away.

It's quite difficult to glean the (true) intent of an intruder, and the possibilities include burglarly, rape, and murder so it's quite reasonable to protect yourself.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#608

Post by Clubber »

rajin444 wrote: post #306
valeness wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(speaking generally here at those I've seen share the same rage, not accusing you directly) I just cannot wrap my head around being so upset that a public official lied you're willing to sever friendships, familial ties, and sacrifice your career because you refuse to follow sane and frankly manageable guidelines to prevent the spread of COVID-19. It's not even that the messaging is currently or has been conflicting…

You're probably overestimating covid risk (there are other polls similar to this one - this is the most recent): https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/354938/adults-estimat... The media's addiction to "scare articles" as well as the government's willingness to promote noble lies puts a lot of weight towards covid risk being heavily propagandized. On top of that, complying with government orders simply because you're…

>The scariest thing is how quickly propaganda can convince people others are not worth of life. The cheering of unvaccinated covid deaths is abhorrent.

I like to study history and I recall an interview with a German who lived during the holocaust. He was asked if he thought the holocaust could ever happen in the US and replied that it could happen anywhere, it's just it wouldn't necessarily happen the same way as it did in Germany. If it ever happened in the US, it would be its own unique flavor of holocaust. It was pretty chilling. People don't even realize the moral road they are traveling when they praise deaths for political "gotchas"; I guess that's what makes going down that road so easy.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#609

Post by sokoloff »

CamperBob2 wrote: post #605
clairity wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

exactly how you form opinions everyday without having deep knowledge of a given domain. perhaps also read up on the appeal to authority fallacy[0]. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

Maybe you need to do some reading. Appeal to authority is a fallacy only when the appeal is to an unrelated authority. If I rely on public health authorities in determining how to deal with the pandemic, I'm in the clear, logically speaking.

If you rely on reliable public health authorities for pandemic-related advice, you're in the clear, logically speaking.

If you rely on unreliable public health authorities, you might feel OK about your choice, but you're not in the clear, logically.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#610

Post by torstenvl »

rootusrootus wrote: post #591
cat_plus_plus wrote: post #356

How about the biggest dishonesty - lack of admission that not everyone is at the same risk and that lockdowns have significant irreversible costs for low risk individuals and for society? Young children are not getting critical development years back. Healthy 20 somethings only have limited time to date, party and have fun before being saddled with adult responsibilities forever. Most of shattered local businesses ar…

My goodness, what a selfish take. God forbid 20 somethings miss out on some party time. Meanwhile, people who need medical care (many of them not elderly) can't get it because the hospitals are choked with covid patients.

Gen X and older don't have the moral high ground when it comes to selfishness. You know what's selfish? Selling the nation's economy to boost the stock market and pad your nest egg while collecting social security, then writing article after article ad nauseam about how spoiled Millennials are because they dared to eat an avocado with their breakfast.

The lockdowns and mandates are just one more example of generational warfare where the powers that be force the younger generations to sacrifice for the older generations that have already sucked dry every resource they possibly can.

I am so sick of Boomers and their ilk destroying the environment, destroying the economy, undermining democracy, defunding education, sending us into a two-decade war without a strategy or exit plan while collecting dividends from war profiteers, enslaving us in Ponzi schemes masquerading as social safety nets, forcing us into unemployment while racking up national debt we will have to pay back, and unconstitutionally placing the entire country under house arrest without charges, counsel, trial, or jury, all while brazenly lying to our faces about masks ("the typical mask you buy in the drug store is not really effective in keeping out virus"), lockdowns ("two weeks to flatten the curve"), the origin of COVID ("Clearly Not a Lab Leak"), conflicts of interest ("NIH never funded gain-of-function research in Wuhan") and so many others it's impossible to keep track.

Western liberal democracy was founded on the simple premise that freedom is inherent, not merely a privilege doled out by the government — that we shall die on our feet before living on our knees. The nations of the world seem to have forgotten this these past two years, and forced — sometimes with violence — their own citizens to sacrifice their freedom with no end in sight.

Wanting to feel loved is not selfish. Wanting to work is not selfish. Wanting to see your friends, your family, is not selfish. Stealing the right to pursue life — real life, not just the continuation of breathing — that is what's selfish.

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