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Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

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Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#521

Post by detaro »

spookthesunset wrote: post #516
detaro wrote: post #506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> people still trot out “4% kill rate” Which health authority or public health expert is claiming that today and hasn't shared updates with better data (=good news)? Yes, some people still bring that, but that's not because evil experts hide the true data from them.

The “experts” don’t say “4%” but they also don’t even bother to give an actual IFR. Why haven’t they? We’ve known it for quite some time.

Media reports about updated risk estimates are easy to find? I guess it's not so much one catchy number anymore and instead goes in more detail regarding age/risk groups, but that's a good thing given how vague an average number is over such a large span? And I'd argue easier to understand what it means than the average number.

I guess you can always argue "but it's not properly explained and people don't understand it!!!", but so much information people keep claiming is hidden is just there and repeated in news reports once you read past the headlines. And at some point people need to deal with the fact that data is messy and not all numbers agree or mean the same thing and that that has reasons. I feel that goes back to the title of the submission here.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#522

Post by [deleted] »

nradov wrote: post #510
hackingforfun wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you make a good point here that someone can be pro-vaccine while being against a mandate. I hadn't thought of it that way. I don't really see many Republicans going out of their way recommending vaccines though, either. Trump got his in secret initially.

Sensor Mitch McConnell: "I’m glad to share that a few minutes ago, I received a booster vaccination for COVID-19." https://www.mcconnell.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/2021/9/mcc... You can find plenty more similar statements by Republicans if you bother to look.

[deleted]

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#523

Post by CamperBob2 »

clairity wrote: post #381
Natsu wrote: post #313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This matches a lot of my own experience in trying to convince people to take reasonable precautions and get vaccinated. And I was one of the first in line for my age group in my state. You have to do things to build trust first, and you have to be willing to admit that some of the measures taken are farcical and have no basis in science. People will listen to a reasonable, nuanced discussion. They won't listen to som…

'just follow the rules'... that's exactly how we get the blind unreasonableness we're seeing everywhere. you need to examine your assumption that masks are doing anything at all in most common situations, and then consider what's actually reasonable vs. what you've rationalized yourself into. humility is missing in your thrust to convince others of your correctness.

Unless I'm a qualified medical researcher, how exactly am I supposed to "examine my assumption?"

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#524

Post by somewhereoutth »

rajin444 wrote: post #306
valeness wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(speaking generally here at those I've seen share the same rage, not accusing you directly) I just cannot wrap my head around being so upset that a public official lied you're willing to sever friendships, familial ties, and sacrifice your career because you refuse to follow sane and frankly manageable guidelines to prevent the spread of COVID-19. It's not even that the messaging is currently or has been conflicting…

You're probably overestimating covid risk (there are other polls similar to this one - this is the most recent): https://news.gallup.com/opinion/gallup/354938/adults-estimat... The media's addiction to "scare articles" as well as the government's willingness to promote noble lies puts a lot of weight towards covid risk being heavily propagandized. On top of that, complying with government orders simply because you're…

Begads! A Selfawarewolf in the flesh!!

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#525

Post by hypertele-Xii »

kyleee wrote: post #415
kelnos wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I get that, and I explicitly reject it as "part of the country's DNA". Talk and assumptions like that merely perpetuate the status quo.

It's a governance technique meant to curb excesses of the ruling elite, informed by the historical frequency of ill behaved governing bodies and their miscellaneous maltreatment of the governed

That also causes significant loss of life, both domestically and abroad.

The punishment feels, to me, disproportionate to the crime. Things like having permission to shoot someone for breaking into your house.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#526

Post by nverno »

tablespoon wrote: post #463
PeterisP wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The voters of those left-wing parties identify as "left" so if a Rush Limbaugh encourages people to distrust the "left" then those voters simply distrust Rush Limbaugh instead of altering their vote. Otherwise, if he covers Left-1 party with shit, Left-2 gains voters; if he points out a scandal in Left-2, Left-1 gains voters; if he points out that both Left-1 and Left-2 have a horrible foreign policy, there's likely…

> The voters of those left-wing parties identify as "left" so if a Rush Limbaugh encourages people to distrust the "left" then those voters simply distrust Rush Limbaugh instead of altering their vote. But what about the center? > if he points out that both Left-1 and Left-2 have a horrible foreign policy, there's likely Left-3 that opposes Left-1 and Left-2 on that policy That seems to assume there's a party for eve…

I don't think it is that unrealistic (not every combination, but popular ones). The results from parts of Europe that have many political parties, eg. Germany, show voters being relatively fluid over just a few years [1]. The US, on the other hand, has been consistently split in roughly two for ages. The combination of right on social/left on economics may be somewhat strange in the US now (and perhaps the west in general?), but in China it's the norm.

[1] https://www.economist.com/the-economist-explains/2016/03/15/...

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#527

Post by coryrc »

autoexec wrote: post #489
kelnos wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear this a lot, but there's no reason why this has to be the case. The government has a lot to say in how much the people trust it. If they make the first move (and probably the second, and third, and fourth) in being trustworthy and trusting people with information, they can change this perception. It would take decades at minimum, probably longer than our lifetimes, but this doesn't need to be a foregone conclus…

One of the most frustrating things about this for me, is that this pandemic has highlighted just how important it is that the public have trust and faith in science, doctors, medicine, and in government agencies like the CDC. For far too long we've allowed private companies put their profits over human lives and it's hurt that trust. We have seen scientists taking money from corporations to publish bullshit studies f…

"put their profits over human lives"

The government has a price per life when setting airline and automobile standards. Is that putting "profits over human lives"?

Stop with the ridiculous rhetoric.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#528

Post by nkssy »

spookthesunset wrote: post #439
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust What are examples of this? Most of the U.S. was quite loose about lockdowns and mask requirements until their specific geography got hit. (For example, I summered in the Smoky Mountains June of 2020. Compared to New York, it was as if nothing had happened. The tone changed by December, after the South h…

> What are examples of this? Ever tried to express even the smallest amount of criticism? People you know in real life will rip you apart and call you very horrible things. The gaslighting and level of sanctimonious nonsense has been out of this world. I’ve been called “dangerous” for merely posting screenshots of public health department data. People are nuts!

It's not that people are "nuts" as such. They're scared and, more often now, terrified. Scared people aren't known for their ability to reason.

Its why governments often abuse fear for political means. Its rocket fuel for propaganda.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#529

Post by lborsato »

danhak wrote: post #317
nielsbot wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It doesn't have to be rational. Vaccines mandates are already common for school children, nurses, (and maybe teachers, but I'm not sure about that one) The rage over masks (and things like "CRT") is being intentionally stoked to win elections. The plan is to make it an us vs them issue. Again, it's intentional and cynical. If you stoke rage about mask wearing (and vaccines) you can position yourself as also being a v…

Government-imposed vaccine mandates were never common for access to private establishments, as is now the case in NYC and LA Philosophically speaking, It's one thing for the government to say you must be vaccinated to attend public school. It's quite another thing for them to say you must be vaccinated to enter a privately-owned gym.

Or to work remotely.
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