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Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

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Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#271

Post by dominotw »

nielsbot wrote: post #217
valeness wrote: post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(speaking generally here at those I've seen share the same rage, not accusing you directly) I just cannot wrap my head around being so upset that a public official lied you're willing to sever friendships, familial ties, and sacrifice your career because you refuse to follow sane and frankly manageable guidelines to prevent the spread of COVID-19. It's not even that the messaging is currently or has been conflicting…

It doesn't have to be rational. Vaccines mandates are already common for school children, nurses, (and maybe teachers, but I'm not sure about that one) The rage over masks (and things like "CRT") is being intentionally stoked to win elections. The plan is to make it an us vs them issue. Again, it's intentional and cynical. If you stoke rage about mask wearing (and vaccines) you can position yourself as also being a v…

> The plan is to make it an us vs them issue. Again, it's intentional and cynical.

Why doesn't everyone see things clearly for what they are. If its obviously 'the plan' .

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#272

Post by kelnos »

ssully wrote: post #113
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion the biggest example of this was the poor mask guidance early on in the pandemic that was subsequently reversed. Zeynep Tufekci had a very good piece in the NYT on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... The real fear was that there would be a run on masks by the public, making them unavailable for hospital use. Also, at the time, there wasn't clear evidence of the effective…

I think it's also worth pointing out that even with them saying masks aren't effective for the public, there was still a run on masks. I don't have the exact date, but when I looked for n95's at my local hardware store in March 2020, they were all gone and this was definitely before we were told to wear masks. And soon after we started getting stories about hospitals running low on PPE. I am not saying what the right…

> American perspective, no matter what the government told people to do, there was going to be a contingent of people that would do the exact opposite because we are a stubborn and distrustful people.

Right, but you have to start somewhere. The reason we are distrustful is because past experience with the US government has taught us to be distrustful. The first time the US government applies this idea to trust the people and give truthful information, it probably won't go super well. People will still doubt and mistrust. Trust is built over time, not just by saying "yeah, we've been lying forever now, but trust us, we're going to start telling the truth now".

The answer shouldn't be "well, the people aren't going to trust us anyway, so we shouldn't bother being truthful". That's just self-fulfilling the lack of trust, and perpetuates the problem.

Someone else pointed out that telling the truth can also allow you to use social pressure to get what you want. As you point out, telling people "masks don't work so don't bother hoarding them" didn't work; people still hoarded them and there was a shortage. And people who hoarded early could later put on a smug grin and say, "yeah, I knew what was going on from the start and did the right thing". If the government had instead said "masks can help, but we need to reserve the supply for hospitals and first responders", then you create social stigma around hoarding masks. It won't stop hoarding 100%, but it can help. At least you probably won't be worse off than the shortages we ended up having anyway, and, meanwhile, you've taken a step that increases trust. And you paint the hoarders as anti-social and selfish.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#273

Post by sk2020 »

bigodbiel wrote: post #204

Right now the CDC continues on its crusade against natural immunity, despite the dozens of studies proving otherwise. It’s understandable how public health policy has it pitfalls, but completely dismissing elementary biology is another shot in the foot.

"How can we put a meter on it?"

-JP Morgan (he/him)

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#274

Post by ssully »

ifyoubuildit wrote: post #183
ssully wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously. The vendiagram of people who would be for interment of a minority they distrust or a war for retribution, and the people currently rallying against mask/vaccine's would almost be a perfect circle.

> people who would be for interment of a minority they distrust If the government announced tomorrow that they would be putting all unvaccinated people in internment camps for everyone's safety, how many people do you think would be in favor? I've certainly seen plenty of comments on the internet that would suggest it's not zero.

I would like to think that is something that would be acceptable to a fringe minority. Mandates are one thing; forced detention is like multiple steps further in the wrong direction.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#275

Post by kelnos »

bigodbiel wrote: post #195
reducesuffering wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> no matter what the government told people to do, there was going to be a contingent of people that would do the exact opposite because we are a stubborn and distrustful people. Americans are this way because the government continually gives them a reason to. The lying through the pandemic, the Iraq war, it just goes on.

America is like that from foundation! Distrust in the government is in this nation’s DNA! Right now Gov. Abbott is taking a major stand against Biden’s vaccine mandates.

I hear this a lot, but there's no reason why this has to be the case. The government has a lot to say in how much the people trust it. If they make the first move (and probably the second, and third, and fourth) in being trustworthy and trusting people with information, they can change this perception.

It would take decades at minimum, probably longer than our lifetimes, but this doesn't need to be a foregone conclusion.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#276

Post by [deleted] »

valeness wrote: post #216
EamonnMR wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really think this will go down as The Big Mistake that lost the public's trust in the US and made compliance for every subsequent measure difficult to sell, and opened the door to nutters.

This is a pretty privileged viewpoint imo. This one small thing lost the public's trust? Not the fact that cops used to pull me over for no reason because I lived in a poor neighborhood? Not the fact that my family member's lives were ruined because of tiny drug-related infractions? Not the fact that we went on a pointless 20+ year war for no reason (just the one within my lifetime)? Really. Wearing a mask is the bre…

[deleted]

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#277

Post by nokcha »

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #132
colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

>censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives Much of what you describe as 'censoring' was focused on stopping the promotion of false cures eg Hydroxychloroquine, Ivermectin, H2O2 nebulization etc. This type of speech is already highly regulated, as most people lack the capacity to 'do their own research' regarding a drug's safety or efficacy.

>This type of speech is already highly regulated,

Commercial speech (e.g., advertising) about drugs is highly regulated, but speech of ordinary citizens (who don't have a financial interest in the drugs being discussed) isn't regulated by the government since it is protected by the First Amendment.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#278

Post by philovivero »

ifyoubuildit wrote: post #183
ssully wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously. The vendiagram of people who would be for interment of a minority they distrust or a war for retribution, and the people currently rallying against mask/vaccine's would almost be a perfect circle.

> people who would be for interment of a minority they distrust If the government announced tomorrow that they would be putting all unvaccinated people in internment camps for everyone's safety, how many people do you think would be in favor? I've certainly seen plenty of comments on the internet that would suggest it's not zero.

You are on hacker news. Left is good. Right is bad.

Facts and reality will not change this formula.

You are absolutely right. Just read the comments, not even "on the internet" but right here on HN. Some even seem in favour of a... "more extreme" solution yet than internment, and have not a shred of self-reflection when they talk a mad game about others being bad people.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#279

Post by belltaco »

bellyfullofbac wrote: post #199
belltaco wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Edit: Everytime I point this out, I get hit by multiple downvotes That's a pretty poor example since people had already decided covid wasn't even as dangerous as the flu. The recipient of the highest civilian award in the US said this to his 15 million audience. >"It looks like the coronavirus is being weaponized as yet another element to bring down Donald Trump," Limbaugh said Feb. 24 on his radio show. "Now, I want…

Yeah you're getting downvoted because your championing Limbaugh and Fox News, known liars. Probably in your reality they're champions of truth, but seriously, your reality has some blind spots. Big ones. Your citing quotes from the beginning of the pandemic. Hah, ever noticed how situations evolve and grow? Dubya didn't react when he heard about a plane hitting the first WTC tower because like everyone else, his aide…

>Yeah you're getting downvoted because your championing Limbaugh and Fox News, known liars. Probably in your reality they're champions of truth, but seriously, your reality has some blind spots. Big ones.

Uhh, I am saying the opposite. I am just pointing out the misinformation spread which has nothing to do with CDC mask advice.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#280

Post by joshuaissac »

nobody9999 wrote: post #152
dehrmann wrote: post #55

Fauci (and the CDC) lying about masks out of fear it would cause a shortage for healthcare providers burnt a lot of trust quickly. It probably helped the US get into the polarized situation it's in now.

>Fauci (and the CDC) lying about masks out of fear it would cause a shortage for healthcare providers burnt a lot of trust quickly. It probably helped the US get into the polarized situation it's in now. This confuses me. If the claim that masks "don't work" caused folks to distrust public health authorities, then why are many of the folks who claim to distrust those PH authorities refusing to wear masks?

Because once they lose their credibility, everything they say will be viewed with distrust.

> If the claim that masks "don't work" caused folks to distrust public health authorities

I would say it is more the contradictory messaging that caused the distrust, than the initial claim that masks do not work.

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