Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths • Hacker News Board

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#211

Post by nradov » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:57 PM UTC

betterunix2 wrote: post #106

colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

Censorship is not what causes large numbers of US citizens to refuse this vaccine. If the Republicans in leadership positions took this seriously from the start and did not go around casting doubt on vaccination far more people would get the vaccine. If the previous president had not politicized the response to COVID and had simply told his followers to do what the CDC says we would have many millions more people get…

Prominent Democrats also cast doubt on vaccine safety. The governor of California essentially stated that he didn't trust the FDA and insisted on doing another safety review before authorizing vaccines for use in the state. This was inexcusable political behavior on both sides.

https://www.gov.ca.gov/2020/10/27/western-states-join-califo...

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#212

Post by jaywalk » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:57 PM UTC

r00fus wrote: post #88

The lede is buried here, the reason the US is not cohesive is entirely due to the former president who continues to this day to support and spur the anti-vax movement.

The same former President who kicked off Operation Warp Speed to develop and distribute the vaccines? https://www.businessinsider.com/operation-warp-speed-us-coro...

The same former President who said he's "proud" to be vaccinated and wishes more people would get vaccinated? https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/donald-trump-pushes-...

The reason the US is not cohesive is precisely because of people like you.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#213

Post by larkost » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:59 PM UTC

teh_infallible wrote: post #180

Mikeb85 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With how governments have behaved I absolutely understand why people would distrust them and to be honest, I have absolutely zero trust in government right now too. They put politics and driving wedges between people to further entrench their positions (a bunch of provinces and our feds all called snap elections during Covid) over honesty and people. Even now instead of trying to assuage the fears of the vaccine hesi…

Ironically, those PHDs you trust are the most hesitant

Source please. I know a number of PHDs, and they were all early in line to get vaccines. I have not seen numbers for PHDs (only MDs), but I would be willing to wager that the vaccine rates for PHDs have been high the whole time. Certainly not without notable exceptions, but you get kooks in every group.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#214

Post by jeromegv » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:59 PM UTC

rob_c wrote: post #18

colordrops wrote: post #10

The article is discussing the media and government being intentionally vague or even misinformative because they don't trust the public, but it backfires and causes more distrust. The flip side that wasn't discussed is the belittling and censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives, which engendered even more distrust. Their strategy of information control backfired, and they doubled down. Now we've got…

Not just US, I would say there's a large number of very well educated people even in well off countries who have a large amount of hesitation toward this mainly due to information handling and lack of transparency. (Yes there is a very vocal anti-vax nut job crowd, but frankly that will always be there, and is always different to those who object to policy decisions on moral grounds of their failings and the deaths t…

Just look at data of percentage of people vaccinated in the western world where supply is actually available for anyone to take the vaccine right now. The US is last.

There is something specific to the US here.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#215

Post by notahacker » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:59 PM UTC

timr wrote: post #150

jasonlaramburu wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>censoring of voices that were skeptical of the narratives Much of what you describe as 'censoring' was focused on stopping the promotion of false cures eg Hydroxychloroquine, Ivermectin, H2O2 nebulization etc. This type of speech is already highly regulated, as most people lack the capacity to 'do their own research' regarding a drug's safety or efficacy.

> Much of what you describe as 'censoring' was focused on stopping the promotion of false cures eg Hydroxychloroquine, Ivermectin, H2O2 nebulization etc. HCQ, while it has been bourne out that it doesn't work, was a perfect example of miscommunication and "protective censorship" breeding public mistrust: the initial papers that cast doubt on HCQ were based on fabricated data . Based on this initial bit of false data…

People were dying from self-administered HCQ as a supposed prophylactic because politicians seeking to downplay the severity of COVID were contradicting their health officials and insisting that it would work miracles and should be available outside hospitals long before that reprehensible fake "study" came out. And yes, they were ridiculed for it by certain sections of the media, and rightly so. That "study" certainly made things worse, but it was far from the only source of doubt on hydrochloroquine hype, and a study published in May can't be blamed for a pattern which started in March.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#216

Post by valeness » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 5:59 PM UTC

EamonnMR wrote: post #193

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion the biggest example of this was the poor mask guidance early on in the pandemic that was subsequently reversed. Zeynep Tufekci had a very good piece in the NYT on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... The real fear was that there would be a run on masks by the public, making them unavailable for hospital use. Also, at the time, there wasn't clear evidence of the effective…

I really think this will go down as The Big Mistake that lost the public's trust in the US and made compliance for every subsequent measure difficult to sell, and opened the door to nutters.

This is a pretty privileged viewpoint imo.

This one small thing lost the public's trust?

Not the fact that cops used to pull me over for no reason because I lived in a poor neighborhood? Not the fact that my family member's lives were ruined because of tiny drug-related infractions? Not the fact that we went on a pointless 20+ year war for no reason (just the one within my lifetime)? Really. Wearing a mask is the breaking point here?

How easy are people's lives? They have everything going for them except they have to wear a mask so THEN they lose faith in the system.

Fucking spare me.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#217

Post by nielsbot » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:00 PM UTC

valeness wrote: post #206

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion the biggest example of this was the poor mask guidance early on in the pandemic that was subsequently reversed. Zeynep Tufekci had a very good piece in the NYT on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... The real fear was that there would be a run on masks by the public, making them unavailable for hospital use. Also, at the time, there wasn't clear evidence of the effective…

(speaking generally here at those I've seen share the same rage, not accusing you directly) I just cannot wrap my head around being so upset that a public official lied you're willing to sever friendships, familial ties, and sacrifice your career because you refuse to follow sane and frankly manageable guidelines to prevent the spread of COVID-19. It's not even that the messaging is currently or has been conflicting…

It doesn't have to be rational. Vaccines mandates are already common for school children, nurses, (and maybe teachers, but I'm not sure about that one)

The rage over masks (and things like "CRT") is being intentionally stoked to win elections. The plan is to make it an us vs them issue. Again, it's intentional and cynical.

If you stoke rage about mask wearing (and vaccines) you can position yourself as also being a valiant anti-mask/anti-vax candidate and win elections on this issue.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#218

Post by Clubber » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:00 PM UTC

EamonnMR wrote: post #193

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my opinion the biggest example of this was the poor mask guidance early on in the pandemic that was subsequently reversed. Zeynep Tufekci had a very good piece in the NYT on this: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/17/opinion/coronavirus-face-... The real fear was that there would be a run on masks by the public, making them unavailable for hospital use. Also, at the time, there wasn't clear evidence of the effective…

I really think this will go down as The Big Mistake that lost the public's trust in the US and made compliance for every subsequent measure difficult to sell, and opened the door to nutters.

The public hasn't trusted the US government in a long time, probably since Nixon. Recent examples of lies are Iraq WMDs, Iraq involvement with 9/11, Afghanistan progress, and NSA surveillance. Follow that with persecution of whistleblowers and the government seems like it's gone rogue to many.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#219

Post by alkonaut » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:00 PM UTC

d23 wrote: post #186

alkonaut wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s “this”? that this Trump statement actually made any difference?

That Trump's motivation for literally anything is anything but pure, raw self-interest. It had nothing to do with a fear of panic and everything to do with the number of ways he perceived it in his self-interest to continually deny this was even happening. He gaslit an entire nation. Judging by the comments I've seen here lately (not yours), I'm really starting to question the company I'm keeping here.

Agree though I don’t think it’s mutually exclusive. Trump doesn’t like the look of panic because it would make him look bad. Or make the stock market tank, or whatever. I don’t for a second think that his desire to avoid panic was because that would be better for the country (I honestly don’t even think it occurred to him that that would be a valid excuse for downplaying).

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#220

Post by takeda » Tue, Oct 12, 2021, 6:01 PM UTC

jmeister wrote: post #114

betterunix2 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Censorship is not what causes large numbers of US citizens to refuse this vaccine. If the Republicans in leadership positions took this seriously from the start and did not go around casting doubt on vaccination far more people would get the vaccine. If the previous president had not politicized the response to COVID and had simply told his followers to do what the CDC says we would have many millions more people get…

Kamala Harris is on record(last summer) saying she wouldn’t take the vaccine if Trump told her to take it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dAjCeMuXR0

What she said, she will trust doctors or scientists over trump.

I have antivaxxers in my family, and it is the reverse, they trust trump over scientists and doctors. And when given argument, that trump himself said to take vaccine and that he took it himself, their response is that it was a placebo and this was step just to appeal to moderates, heh...