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Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

nature.com

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Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#31
post #15

Edit: before you downvote this, read it? I'm not an anti-vax nutcase. They didn't trust the public with their actual thinking at any point during Covid. The guidance was initially "don't wear a mask, it will make it worse because you'll infect yourself with your hand" to "we'll just lock down for 3 weeks and then back to normal" to "we have to flatten the curve to avoid overwhelming hospitals" to the current policy o…

Surgical masks (and other cloth masks) make a small but significant difference in transmission. At the beginning of the pandemic, we didn't understand whether that difference was lost in the increased need to interact with one's face while wearing a mask (and we now know that SARS-CoV-2 becomes inactivated quite quickly on surfaces, like our hands). N95s and higher rated masks/filters have always been very good for v…

you’re getting hung up on technical details, when behavior dominates how effective masks are in practice. it’s like crowing about a 500hp engine in your car that you use to haul the kids to soccer practice. it just doesn’t matter.

if the message were inverted—wear masks at home, around friends, and in social situations rather than in public—perhaps masks might have made a bit of a difference. but that wasn’t the message, and as a result masks haven’t made much difference at all (other than the ulterior purpose of instilling fear and control). most of the effect attributed to masking was a misattribution away from simple distancing.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#32
post #24
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s more interesting is that most of these people will survive this episode (given the known mortality data) and thus will “win” the debate (from their point of view) and will never ever trust the government (or health authorities) again. That’s the biggest downside in reality, and regaining the trust is going to be extremely complicated.

>That’s the biggest downside Downside for whom?

Society? People who want their fellow citizens to work toward greater goods collectively?

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#33

I agree with the sentiment of this article, but I'm noticing that some folks can't determine fact from fiction even when presented with data that supports the facts or makes them irrefutable. No amount of logic, facts, or transparency will be enough for these folks, and while I can appreciate a skeptic, some of these people are beyond basic help and need professional guidance.

This is of course true for people on both sides of the political aisle, but for different subjects.

Quite. I watched a debate between Scott Horton and Bill Kristol.

Watching Kristol remain steadfast in his position despite all evidence is pretty amazing. Horton wasn’t perfect either but at last he had evidence on his side.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#34
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What’s more interesting is that most of these people will survive this episode (given the known mortality data) and thus will “win” the debate (from their point of view) and will never ever trust the government (or health authorities) again. That’s the biggest downside in reality, and regaining the trust is going to be extremely complicated.

Such pandemics don't start every other year. Last great one was 100 years ago. So i wouldn't worry at all for the "winners", there's plenty of time for generations to refresh. Worry about government's inability to learn and improve based on past mistakes, also complacency. It's not hard to imagine 100 years from now, popular presidential guy spearheading the next great pandemic, calming the subjects down with the gre…

The vaccine hesitancy will impact vaccines for HPV, measles, HEP B, etc. etc. for generations.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#35

The author is completely right in that the government at least in the US attempting to downplay, mislead or 'avoid panic' absolutely destroyed any credibility and is still suffering from it. Most people are not stupid, if provided with all available information as well as clear statements regarding the reliability of that information and just a clear message saying "hey this is new and we have no idea, we are making…

> Most people are not stupid, if provided with all available information as well as clear statements regarding the reliability of that information and just a clear message saying "hey this is new and we have no idea, we are making our best guess" people will make decent choices

Citation needed

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#36

I agree with the sentiment of this article, but I'm noticing that some folks can't determine fact from fiction even when presented with data that supports the facts or makes them irrefutable. No amount of logic, facts, or transparency will be enough for these folks, and while I can appreciate a skeptic, some of these people are beyond basic help and need professional guidance.

[deleted]

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#37

I agree with the sentiment of this article, but I'm noticing that some folks can't determine fact from fiction even when presented with data that supports the facts or makes them irrefutable. No amount of logic, facts, or transparency will be enough for these folks, and while I can appreciate a skeptic, some of these people are beyond basic help and need professional guidance.

It certainly does not help that search will cater to whatever it is you are looking for with helpful articles supporting just about any viewpoint.

To your point, if there is no helping 'these folks', the logical conclusion is to take guardrails down and let god sort them out.

I will admit I am still coming to terms with all this.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#38

I agree with the sentiment of this article, but I'm noticing that some folks can't determine fact from fiction even when presented with data that supports the facts or makes them irrefutable. No amount of logic, facts, or transparency will be enough for these folks, and while I can appreciate a skeptic, some of these people are beyond basic help and need professional guidance.

It feels like a game of political chicken to me.

Like, "if you won't trust the voting public enough to give them the whole truth and instead treat them like blubbering fools, how can you--with a straight face--pretend that their ability to pick leaders or vote on actual issues is a correct way to run a country?"

So instead of compliance, they'll bring the whole damn thing down in protest. I don't think the plurality of those who refuse the vaccine actively deny the existence of the virus, or even the efficacy and safety of the vaccine. I feel they're just absolutely sick of the hypocrisy and pandering by "leaders" who refuse to lead by example on much of anything.

As many before me have said, you'll always have the kooks that deny science but I honest-to-God think those are the minority.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#39
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is obviously false, they did know that it was better to wear a mask. Most of the population of the world was already wearing masks or being told to do so if possible. Doctors and other health professionals wear masks. National policy should not be made on the basis of 'some people kindof have this pet theory that you might infect yourself if you touch your ear'. I don't know of a single study that says you incre…

It really wasn't false at the time; there's a bunch of uncertainty around it for this virus. For quite a long time, people really did believe SARS-CoV-2 could transmit through surfaces easily. We now know that to be incorrect.

People may or may not have believed a lot of things, but if you are asserting that they didn't know that respiratory viruses primarily spread via the respiratory system you must be joking?

If you can show me even a single document dated from before Fall-2019 that expresses a concern that untrained users of n95 masks may INCREASE their chances of infection by coronaviruses, cold viruses, flu virus (basically anything other than Ebola or other hemorrhagic fevers) somehow, then I will happily agree that this was an area of debate and perhaps competent (but incorrect) advice to avoid mask usage.

However, if no such evidence exists, you should agree with me that the evidence points to incompetent and/or intentionally misleading guidance.

Re: Covid lesson: trust the public with hard truths

#40
post #4

Thanks for posting. It's a terrible shame society has torn itself apart before we could learn the (to some) obvious lesson, but at least maybe this will inform policy in the future... That or governments are now more terrified of people losing their minds and so feel they should be even more controlling in their fear response as a knee jerk reaction.... Either way, in the UK we failed to save about 67% of those who c…

> governments are now more terrified of people losing their minds

The empirical evidence from the covid experience seems to justify their fears that a segment of the population will lose their minds.

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