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Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

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Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#381

Post by krageon »

bsagdiyev wrote: post #289
krageon wrote: post #236

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> dismissive mechanism Yes, it is. It is meant to dismiss trolls. > to justify overreaction Trolls should be banned, because they are poison to a community. As such, it is not an overreaction to use a mechanism like this.

I don’t have hours every day to research every little thing. You want to be an ambassador for your views? Provide context and references.

What is there to research? I said what a bad faith argument is for (banning trolls) and why it is necessary (trolls are poison). This addresses the post I responded to in it's entirety.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#382

Post by fritzx6 »

mlang23 wrote: post #357

I realize CoCs were introduced to make certain supposedly marginalized groups more at home at conferences. But my personal experience/feeling is the complete reverse. I am a member of a minority as a person with a disability. In all the years I was interacting with the community, I haven't had a single issue with someone I couldn't handle myself. I never felt uneasy interacting with others. But the day I saw the firs…

It's definitely a difficult balance to strike, to provide guardrails for diverse groups of individuals, that ensure everyone can behave and be treated civilly.

I applaud you for your ability to stand up for yourself in moments of discomfort or where you feel others are being mistreated. Unfortunately, not everyone is as confident or as self-advocating as you, and a CoC can help protect those who are more likely to weather abuse in silence. Codes of Conduct serve several critical roles in large community gatherings but specifically they are a method for an event organizer to set expectations for acceptable behavior, this serves to:

1. Signal to attendees the atmosphere of inclusivity and tolerance which they can expect to experience (as a marginalized group or not)

2. Provide clear examples of inappropriate behavior so that individuals who are less proactive and self-confident do not dismiss their feelings for fear of being 'over-sensitive'

3. Ensure that transgressors cannot plead ignorance when they are admonished or removed for abusive behavior.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#383

Post by raxxorrax »

noxer wrote: post #190
seoulmetro wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully all these "wokeness" vs "conservative" lines are drawn in the sand. I really enjoyed when we were writing lines of code rather than writing borders, rules and obvious regressive in-fighting. I can't be the only one looking at all this political garbage and ghost drama with shame.

The comment was exactly in that ironic spirit. The internet version or a slow clap for someone who did something completely useless for the sole purpose of virtual signaling. If someone runs around on github doing such nonsense "work" editing text no one ever reads you dont deserve more than a ironic acknowledgement. Its like writing ToS that no one reads but replace the salary of a lawyer with people laughing at you…

I don't think you should ever demonize trivial contributions. I really dislike any COC or even the intent to further "professionalism" but that is another matter. You will never lose anything if someone contributes, however small the change may be.

I have a project with an extremely narrow purpose. Someone corrected a missing dot in a sentence. That was awesome and unexpected.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#384

Post by torstenvl »

sdfkljs wrote: post #366
mlang23 wrote: post #357

I realize CoCs were introduced to make certain supposedly marginalized groups more at home at conferences. But my personal experience/feeling is the complete reverse. I am a member of a minority as a person with a disability. In all the years I was interacting with the community, I haven't had a single issue with someone I couldn't handle myself. I never felt uneasy interacting with others. But the day I saw the firs…

I had similar experience. Went to an art installation run by group of young lefties, and upon entering they say: “if you see any racism or sexism, you should come to us and report it”. I was taken aback and immediately felt uncomfortable. Why did they need to say this? Do they have a problem with racism and sexism? Which would have been unusual because it was a lefty place. The real question is does any of this stuff…

> Do they have a problem with racism and sexism? Which would have been unusual because it was a lefty place.

Очень хорошо, товарищ

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#385

Post by raxxorrax »

taneq wrote: post #181
dfgjnirf wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

4chan /pol/ does this stuff all the time. The OK as white power sign, the Free Bleeding movement as just a few off the top of my head. But then there are antifastonetoss which I'm pretty sure are actually fans of stonetoss using a loophole to avoid getting banned. These people cannot operate in the open and have found other ways to operate. I can't tell if it fits the Ruby CoC case. I'm just keeping an open mind to t…

Oh totally, I didn't mean to imply there weren't actors out there doing shady bad-faith false-flag things. There totally are. It's just that sometimes (often?) what they post is indistinguishable from the real thing.

Best case to make a point on the internet is to argue the opposite and doing that very badly.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#386

Post by okeuro49 »

I raised my eyebrow at a statement in one of the comments in the PR.

"This is so that a harasser won't be able to use a meritocracy argument, which as we all know, is dehumanizing..."

I don't follow this at all. A meritocracy is what we want to achieve: it doesn't matter about the colour of your skin, sex, or orientation, if you can generate code of merit, then if there is a meritocracy, you should earn the respect of the community.

This doesn't mean that everyone doesn't deserve a basic level of respect.

But there are people who are better than me at what I do; I am better than other people. That's a fact of life. I think what other people achieve that I couldn't, is amazing, and I help others achieve what I am better at.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#387

Post by yxhuvud »

flippinburgers wrote: post #170

They don't appear to have received Matz's approval for their changes. Unsurprising. Furthermore they don't even have a solid definition of terms. Unsurprising. Furthermore their arguments are based on their interpretations of law in California. Unsurprising. https://github.com/ruby/www.ruby-lang.org/pull/2690

Merging a change to the CoC without any input at all from any well known long time members of the Ruby core team make me guess the committer is going to get a stern talking to.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#388

Post by awb »

ho_schi wrote: post #371

Please tell me that this Code of Conducts are all jokes? I've developed a fragile and basic rule which I try to follow: Don't be an asshole. I fail sometimes following that rule and I don't deny it. I struggle to become better but keep going. Of course you could extend this by "Help others, when appropriate", "Be nice to each other", "Use common sense", "Pardon others", "Don't be a d***", "Don't be a b*****" but that…

> I fail sometimes following that rule and I don't deny it.

We all have different definitions of being a jerk. So, do you take responsibility when you’ve crossed your own line, or when you’ve crossed someone else’s line?

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#389

Post by chaoskanzlerin »

jamil7 wrote: post #227
BrandoElFollito wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in English you have the neutral word "they". In french you only have the plural of "he" or "she". This means that when you point to a mixed crowd, you must choose which of the plurals you use. The grammatical rule is that one male flips the plural gender to male. If you do not know the sexes, the plural is male. As a French, the construction comes naturally because we've been taught that at school since kind…

German is also developing (unofficial) gender-neutral nouns using an asterisk ending but I think it’s also an open discussion about how best to handle it. It’s mostly often seen when referring to a person’s role, position or job in a way that includes all genders and non-binary people. I speak the language but it’s not my mother tongue so native German speakers might explain it better.

There's two types of gender-neutral nouns in German being used:

- apprehending markers like -*in, -_in, -In [1]

- forming a gerund from a verb describing the activity

e.g. the word "Bäcker" - engl. "baker" - could be written as "Bäcker*in" or "Backende" (from "backen", the verb), depending on the speaker. Note that the gerund form eliminates conveying info about gender, unlike an "universal" marker like *in.

[1] for plural forms, those are expanded to -*innen, -_innen and -Innen

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#390

Post by 3pt14159 »

fennecfoxen wrote: post #360
mlang23 wrote: post #357

I realize CoCs were introduced to make certain supposedly marginalized groups more at home at conferences. But my personal experience/feeling is the complete reverse. I am a member of a minority as a person with a disability. In all the years I was interacting with the community, I haven't had a single issue with someone I couldn't handle myself. I never felt uneasy interacting with others. But the day I saw the firs…

The code of conduct is like HR. It’s there to protect the powerful, not to protect you.

I was the original author of the Pycon Canada Articles of Association back when we were starting it, which included a section on conduct and inclusivity.

A code of conduct is not there to protect powerful people. It's not there to browbeat people into being absolutely politically correct 100% of the time either.

A code of conduct is something you put together so that everyone involved in the initial organization look at it once, and say "yep, I'm dealing with reasonable people here" and 99.999% of the time you don't have to look at it again because you've established from the start the type of people you're dealing with and they attract others that share the values.

Then once in a blue moon someone does something awful and you pull it out and kick them out.

Pete Forde was pretty "powerful" in the Ruby community and I don't exactly see him leading conferences or introducing people to Tobi anymore.

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