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Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

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Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#221

Post by mikojan »

bawolff wrote: post #71
simonsarris wrote: post #4

Almost more surprising is that this was removed: > When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants should always assume good intentions. In favor of this: > Participants should speak and act with good intentions, but understand that intent and impact are not equivalent. Also changed yesterday: > Behaviour which can be reasonably considered harassment will not be tolerated. became: > Behaviour which ca…

Isn't protected class an american legal term? Seems weirdly ameri-centric for a document of this nature. Not to mention that gay people weren't even a protected class in the usa until last year afaik. Not exactly a very inclusive definition. Not to mention the implication that harrasment is somehow ok against people who are not members of the protected class? I appreciate minorities get a lot of shit that others don'…

> Isn't protected class an american legal term?

Protected class ("geschützte Gruppe") is a commonly understood concept in Germany, too.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#222

Post by gklperson »

The change was pushed without asking Matz. I wonder if the strategy is the same as here:

https://www.dailydot.com/unclick/github-gendered-pronoun-deb...

Push a change without asking a non-native English speaker, make that person upset and provoke a counter reaction, then start a major Twitter storm to discredit and possibly expel the non-U.S. peasant.

Some of the names in that article appear on LKML in connection with the Rust proposal (not sure if they are the same persons). Caveat emptor.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#223

Post by Bayart »

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #186
tomjen3 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also is an issue for all others. FX I don’t know if it is appropriate to say “you guys” to a mixed crowd anymore, but if I hadn’t seen that some people get upset about that I wouldn’t think twice about it and just emulated American movies. Buffy isn’t exactly sexist and she says it often and to a mixed crowd.

At least in English you have the neutral word "they". In french you only have the plural of "he" or "she". This means that when you point to a mixed crowd, you must choose which of the plurals you use. The grammatical rule is that one male flips the plural gender to male. If you do not know the sexes, the plural is male. As a French, the construction comes naturally because we've been taught that at school since kind…

>As a French, the construction comes naturally because we've been taught that at school since kindergarten. This always sounded a bit weird, though.

If you follow the grammatical history of French, the neutral gender just got folded into masculine.

>but some innovative-but-not-distruptive changes would be welcome

You can't really produce grammar by decree, at best you can systematize what already exists. The only "sane" way to have explicit neutral in French would be to go back in time, reimplement declensions and possibly mangle phonology in the process. That won't happen. All forms of "inclusive writing" are from the outset destined and meant to be an elitist signal rather than an actual linguistic feature. They won't survive and they'll been seen in the future as a strange, idiosyncratic trend of the age. A bit like Renaissance orthography, where countless letters were added without meaning to simply look fancier.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#224

Post by rat87 »

dfgjnirf wrote: post #103
taneq wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There seems to be a common strategy by right wing accelerationists that involve masquerading as left wing and pushing things into absurdity. Or does there? The truly disturbing aspect of so many things like this is that (as per Poe's Law) it's impossible to distinguish cynical mockery from earnestly-held extremism.

4chan /pol/ does this stuff all the time. The OK as white power sign, the Free Bleeding movement as just a few off the top of my head. But then there are antifastonetoss which I'm pretty sure are actually fans of stonetoss using a loophole to avoid getting banned. These people cannot operate in the open and have found other ways to operate. I can't tell if it fits the Ruby CoC case. I'm just keeping an open mind to t…

but white supremacists including those on 4chan /pol/ have used OK as an actual racist sign. That may not be the dominant meaning of the symbol but it is one that exists.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#225

Post by harlekein »

jonas21 wrote: post #107
eli wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't? It's unchanged in the linked PR.

It was removed in a follow-up PR, "Remove abuse enabling language pt. 2", which is linked to from the first: > Encouraged by the quick success of this PR, I made #2691 with another small change. One step at a time at fixing the world :) https://github.com/ruby/www.ruby-lang.org/pull/2691

These insufferable people think they're actually fixing things with this bull shit.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#226

Post by mantas »

tmmx wrote: post #171
simonsarris wrote: post #4

Almost more surprising is that this was removed: > When interpreting the words and actions of others, participants should always assume good intentions. In favor of this: > Participants should speak and act with good intentions, but understand that intent and impact are not equivalent. Also changed yesterday: > Behaviour which can be reasonably considered harassment will not be tolerated. became: > Behaviour which ca…

Also, now mods don't have to tolerate opposing views. :)

Now the big question is if mods are a part of the protected class or not :)

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#227

Post by jamil7 »

BrandoElFollito wrote: post #186
tomjen3 wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It also is an issue for all others. FX I don’t know if it is appropriate to say “you guys” to a mixed crowd anymore, but if I hadn’t seen that some people get upset about that I wouldn’t think twice about it and just emulated American movies. Buffy isn’t exactly sexist and she says it often and to a mixed crowd.

At least in English you have the neutral word "they". In french you only have the plural of "he" or "she". This means that when you point to a mixed crowd, you must choose which of the plurals you use. The grammatical rule is that one male flips the plural gender to male. If you do not know the sexes, the plural is male. As a French, the construction comes naturally because we've been taught that at school since kind…

German is also developing (unofficial) gender-neutral nouns using an asterisk ending but I think it’s also an open discussion about how best to handle it. It’s mostly often seen when referring to a person’s role, position or job in a way that includes all genders and non-binary people. I speak the language but it’s not my mother tongue so native German speakers might explain it better.

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#228

Post by enriquto »

MattGaiser wrote: post #9
temp8964 wrote: post #2

This whole CoC thing is just stupid. Why do they need to write this kind of rules in the first place?

As a mod, it is helpful to have rules to point to when disciplining someone to prevent it from seeming arbitrary.

Honestly, I'd prefer that trolls get banned straight away without needing to point anywhere, instead of all these stupid CoCs. You do not need any special document to kick off annoying people from a mailing list. The mere existence of CoC documents seems like an elaborate act of extreme trolling.

EDIT: Moreover, CoCs don't really work in practice. Has any CoC ever prevented abuse of somebody? Do you have a concrete example?

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#229

Post by blueflow »

SturgeonsLaw wrote: post #214
bawolff wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't protected class an american legal term? Seems weirdly ameri-centric for a document of this nature. Not to mention that gay people weren't even a protected class in the usa until last year afaik. Not exactly a very inclusive definition. Not to mention the implication that harrasment is somehow ok against people who are not members of the protected class? I appreciate minorities get a lot of shit that others don'…

CoCs themselves, and the wider identity politics culture war, are also extremely Ameri-centric. > the implication that harrasment is somehow ok against people who are not members of the protected class? There is a subset (I like to think that they're the fringe, but have no numbers to back that up) of those who engage in identity politics who do believe that bigotry does not apply when the target is the dominant demo…

Somehow these people also tend to be the ones who have their pronouns in their twitter bio. Am i the only one noticing that correlation?

Re: Ruby removed “Participants will be tolerant of opposing views” from its CoC

#230

Post by interactivecode »

koonsolo wrote: post #185

I think this is a big difference between US and EU. In EU we like to joke around, tease each other, and not get fired over that. When we tell a sexist joke with a woman present, you will get a witty reply from them, not a call to HR. I hope this US bullshit stays in US. Seems that EU women are not victims but can stand their own ground.

Seems more like you knowing it's a sexist joke should be enough reasons not to make it. I sincerely hope you agree that intentional bigotry has no place anywhere.

It's sexist regardless if woman are present. People are victims even if they stand their ground.

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