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Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

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Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#351
post #310
post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well… maybe. I mean, certainly we could find out that was the case and that there was a safer sunblock alternative we might have been using if we had only known about it- but compared to what we definitely know today about sun exposure I think this is a bit of a different story, especially for light skinned people.

Sorry - I wasn't clear ... I am not contrasting sunblock vs. no sunblock ... I am contrasting cheapy chemical sunblocks vs. pure titanium dioxide (?) which appears to be totally benign/inert and which is easy to purchase in a few different form factors (although not spray, which, again, I think is problematic).

You don't have to suspect these things, because they are correct. Almost all spray sunscreen has been found to contain benzene:

https://www.valisure.com/blog/valisure-news/valisure-detects...

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? Maybe an overwrought comparison but I genuinely do feel like we’ll look back on this age of social media and disinformation in the same way we did leaded gas. The people making money knew exactly how dangerous it was and the problems it caused but they did everything in their power to cover it up in the name of profit. Originally it felt like a social annoyance a…

CO₂ could be candidate. Perhaps the effect will be even at a grander scale than leaded gas.

It seems like the top of the list to me! - though it’s been emitted for longer in quantity.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#354

Pure gasoline is not that great of a motor fuel because it knocks (explodes when it's not supposed to during the internal combustion engine cycle). This is a major problem with high-compression airplane engines. However, tetra-ethyl-lead (think one lead atom bonded to four ethanols minus the oxygen atoms) was never necessary to combat the problem. Ethanol's anti-knock properties at a blend of 85% gasoline 15% ethanol…

Apparently there are diesel prop engines that can run with Jet A1 (see [1]). This is apparently especially convenient given that at some airports Avgas isn't easily available compared to jet fuel (at least here in Australia, according to a pilot/aviation YouTuber that I was watching about this just yesterday). 1. https://newatlas.com/cessna-turbo-182-nxt/23465/

kerosene, diesel, and jet fuel are basically interchangeable in any motor supporting one of them. the liability becomes lubrications in the fuel.

avgas is only popular in the US and Canada.

jet a is universally cheaper

avgas engines can be overhauled at the end of their life, which saves money.

diesel engines are basically thrown away and you buy a new one, which negates the cost savings of jet fuel over avgas

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#355
I have a very distinct memory of disembarking from the Budapest to Belgrade night train to the smells of leaded fuel in Belgrade.

Budapest was no standard of cleanliness at the time (late 90s), however Belgrade was truly still in its post-war phase and had all of the energy, anger and edge of a place that had been pretty beaten up.

We were robbed, given a pistol in a nightclub (still have no idea what was going on there, I just remember being really surprised that pistols came in styrofoam and shrink-wrap packages when they are new... Being from Canada I had never even seen a pistol before), were surrounded by really beautiful people who we thought wanted something from us but who were only generous and kind, and .... the smell.

The smell of that leaded fuel was everywhere. It smelled sweet and was so unique. It's what has stuck with me 20+ years later.

One other side note from that trip. We were in the countryside (mean to be meeting a friend from home in his ancestral/family village but took the wrong bus) and someone in the village directed us in to a pub that was basically an old barn. Inside there were many middle eastern guys and a mix of Serbian and english speaking people. I was given a pin by one of the middle eastern guys after I threw an excellent game of darts on the dartboard next to him.

Years later I had a job for a defense contractor and the subject of that trip and the pin came up. I showed him a picture of it and he recognized it instantly: al-Aqsa Martyrs' Brigades. I looked it up and so it was.

We were put up with a local elderly woman who served us some type of soup in the morning and then someone gave us a ride out of town to a bus stop that had service that day. We waited only an hour until the first car came along, reeking of leaded fuel.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#356

I guess we live on the shoulders of nastiness and things get better. So TEL was part of our boot sequence. What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? BTW: The guy that invented TEL also invented CFCs! See Thomas Midgley Jr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr . This guy who invents awesome working chemicals that are tragically bad for people on a worldwide scale manages to exit life dues to his…

There’s a whole class of persistent organic pollutants that probably fit that bill. Plastics manufacture can involve BPA and phthalates; things like PCBs / PBBs occur in a surprising range of places like transformers and capacitors, fire retardants and carbonless copy paper; dioxins form in a bunch of processes and are toxic in frighteningly small doses, and the latest to join the club are the PFAs, which are involved in firefighting foams ans surfactants, or the preparation of water repellent treatments and non-stick coatings. Many are implicated in cancers and endocrine disruption, and may bioaccumulate to significant levels even in people with low exposure. The book Slow Death by Rubber Duck (2011) was a pretty thorough introduction to the subject - although I imagine by now many of its references will be out of date by now.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#357
post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess I put more of the blame on the influencers because they are the ones making editorial decisions. Sure the platforms are optimizing for engagement too, but it's all content-agnostic. The influencers choose their words carefully, and they choose harmful words because it makes them more money.

> they are the ones making editorial decisions ... > they choose harmful words because it makes them more money OK but who is responsible for the fact that choosing harmful words is more profitable?

The audience of the stuff that content creators create and the platforms distribute collectively decides what is more profitable. It's a positive feedback system and ignoring any of the parts will result in a failed "solution".

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#358
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has two radically different concepts of freedom that travel under the same name. Both start with "I should be free to do as I want". One ends with "as long as I don't harm others". The other ends with "regardless of harm to others". You were dealing with the latter. It of course sounds insane when you say it baldly like this, which is why it rarely gets stated openly. But a lot of traditional societal structu…

That's a strawman. There's literally no-one on earth saying "I should be free to do as I want regardless of harm to others".

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Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#359

I guess we live on the shoulders of nastiness and things get better. So TEL was part of our boot sequence. What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? BTW: The guy that invented TEL also invented CFCs! See Thomas Midgley Jr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr . This guy who invents awesome working chemicals that are tragically bad for people on a worldwide scale manages to exit life dues to his…

> What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today?

People have already listed a lot of true answers and a number of speculative answers (also likely mostly true, imo), but I'll toss in that we use two-stroke engine leaf blowers and lawn mowers everywhere—mostly right outside our homes—and it's absolutely bonkers. Massive amounts of NOx, PM2.5, etc.

We spent all this time and money cleaning up our cars (which are still pretty bad), but then run these tiny things that are far worse, right where we live.

I'm willing to bet the noise pollution of them + traffic has a significant negative effect on our health too, but in terms of localized air pollution, the emissions from leaf blowers running a few times week across the street from me easily trump that from all the cars driving past my house.

Hoping electric leaf blowers get good and gain popularity.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#360
post #228
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has two radically different concepts of freedom that travel under the same name. Both start with "I should be free to do as I want". One ends with "as long as I don't harm others". The other ends with "regardless of harm to others". You were dealing with the latter. It of course sounds insane when you say it baldly like this, which is why it rarely gets stated openly. But a lot of traditional societal structu…

To make things more complex, some (small) harms are legitimate: If you open a new store you "harm" other store owners because they have less customers. When you build/repair your home there is some noises and dusts that can annoy other people but it's considered as a legitimate temporary problem. So the question is more where is the limit ?

There isn't a global limit where you can draw a line and say "good things are on one side of the line and bad things are on the other side of the line" - not when it comes to things like this. It's too bad we like to act differently.
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