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Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#251

Post by cwp »

version_five wrote: post #230
cwp wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, the analogy between toxic media and toxic chemicals is pretty good. However, I'd put they blame for that somewhere you might find surprising: influencers. Everybody likes to hate on "big tech" these days, but if there's anyone that knows the dangers and all the ill effects but ignores them to make a profit, it's content creators. They are hyper-attuned to the way people respond to their content, and they'll do…

This may be a "don't hate the player hate the game" type situation. Influencers or aspiring influencers are doing what they do because they are working inside a construct that's set up to reward them for it. They are not blameless, but they are not conspiring to create that damage that social media had done to society, they are in s sense being put up to it by the platforms and users (who by the way I don't think sho…

I guess I put more of the blame on the influencers because they are the ones making editorial decisions. Sure the platforms are optimizing for engagement too, but it's all content-agnostic. The influencers choose their words carefully, and they choose harmful words because it makes them more money.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#252

Post by aaron695 »

paulkrush wrote: post #91

I guess we live on the shoulders of nastiness and things get better. So TEL was part of our boot sequence. What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? BTW: The guy that invented TEL also invented CFCs! See Thomas Midgley Jr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr . This guy who invents awesome working chemicals that are tragically bad for people on a worldwide scale manages to exit life dues to his…

> This guy who invents awesome working chemicals that are tragically bad for people on a worldwide scale

Cars and fridges bad, is pretty much HN at it's core.

These saved millions, probably billions of lives (depending on how you measure it)

Thomas Midgley Jr work making these more efficient means he is an amazing human being that helped humanity saving many many lives.

I guess people need something to justify pushing code around that does nothing?

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#253

Post by shkkmo »

bckygldstn wrote: post #219
wpietri wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has two radically different concepts of freedom that travel under the same name. Both start with "I should be free to do as I want". One ends with "as long as I don't harm others". The other ends with "regardless of harm to others". You were dealing with the latter. It of course sounds insane when you say it baldly like this, which is why it rarely gets stated openly. But a lot of traditional societal structu…

Are there any freedoms fought over in America that truly do no harm to others? Most discussions revolve around tradeoffs between harm and benefit. It seems like "as long as I don't harm others" means "I consider the small harm to others worthwhile for the benefits". And "regardless of harm to others" is using the same approach to come to a conclusion you disagree with. There's a lot of different ways to approach free…

> Are there any freedoms fought over in America that truly do no harm to others?

One that comes to mind is gay marriage.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#254

Post by SilverRed »

WalterBright wrote: post #189
FooBarBizBazz wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Re. "food grade": I think maybe some plastics might be ok, but, when I've recently done some projects involving plastic parts, I've been shocked to learn how little is food-grade. Like, almost nothing with any dye, especially any black dye. Yet how often does one see black plastic cutlery and plates, or microwave dinner trays? Then they have this legalese on them like "do not reheat". WTF? Rubbermaid containers don't…

When I was a kid I never liked plastic cups and glasses because it made the drink taste "plasticy".

Hot liquids are the worst. I find that takeaway coffee is disgusting because the coffee smell is replaced by the smell of melting plastics.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#255

Post by lurker2093 »

ruytlm wrote: post #249
hazbot wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your analogy is pretty apt. However, even though I don't think you can give corporations a free ride just because 'people could choose not to use the product', this is not an absolute! 'People could choose not to use the product' does hold a lot of truth.

When social media companies are trying to make the media as addictive as possible to keep you scrolling and viewing ads, and employing psychological exploits to do so, it's not quite as simple as 'people can just choose not to use it'. It's hardly a free choice when they're actively undermining your ability to choose freely.

it totally still is though, it's not their fault that some people are weak willed / weak minded, this of course changes a little bit when we are talking about minors etc

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#256

Post by cwp »

hansvm wrote: post #237
SavantIdiot wrote: post #220

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? I'm gonna go with overfishing. Anyone who has been shopping since the 1990's has seen fish diversity decline and prices skyrocket beyond inflation (not to mention a sharp increase in farmed and faux-colored fish like salmon). Illegal fishing is impossible to combat. See China's illegal fleets: [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27412691 [2] https://twitter.…

Hypothetically, what would happen if we (USA) banned all fish imports and greatly restricted domestic catches for a few years? For the sake of argument assume there's no economic impact on local fishermen (e.g., through grants), but would that be enough of a catalyst to make China's illegal fleets economically inviable and allow the oceans to recuperate a bit, or are more drastic measures necessary?

That's basically what Canada did with the Grand Banks in 1992. They didn't ban fish imports, but they did deploy the navy to prevent other countries (eg, Spain) from continuing to fish there. This absolutely devastated Newfoundland's economy, and even with unemployment insurance, the population dropped because people left to find work.

I don't think a few years would cut it, the Grand Banks are juuuust starting to come back after almost 30 years of nearly no fishing.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#257

Post by SilverRed »

phendrenad2 wrote: post #240
paulkrush wrote: post #91

I guess we live on the shoulders of nastiness and things get better. So TEL was part of our boot sequence. What nastiness are we subjecting ourselves to today? BTW: The guy that invented TEL also invented CFCs! See Thomas Midgley Jr: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Midgley_Jr . This guy who invents awesome working chemicals that are tragically bad for people on a worldwide scale manages to exit life dues to his…

Processed/GMO foods with less nutrients, exhaust and brake dust from motorways and streets, HPV variants that don't get attention, Lyme disease, probably long-COVID, probably a ton of things I haven't even heard of.

This was probably downvoted due to the mention of GMOs but I think it is not unreasonable to be concerned about these. Most seem to be perfectly fine but one that seems most concerning is GMO roundup ready crops, not because of the GMO, but because they are being sprayed with a dangerous chemical which seems to cause cancer.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#258

Post by chx »

heresie-dabord wrote: post #243
botverse wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is unfortunately not trying to see the problem from the future hindsight. Which is the exercise that GP is suggesting.

Social media is not a toxin of any sort. To call it "toxic" is a metaphor that expresses the revulsion that people feel for the idiocies that social media channels have uncovered. So I do disagree with the liberty of the metaphor in this case. Social media is the business of providing channels of communication to people in exchange for some lucrative data. Other businesses do this too (television, radio, newspapers).…

Failing education is certainly a big problem (and I financed a tiny reform school for five years trying to combat the tiniest of slices of it) but you are missing the power of reach. Not even Edward Murrow could dream of the reach of Facebook.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#259

Post by SilverRed »

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #188
DangitBobby wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or that he was willing to risk his health for wealth at everyone's expense.

Nah. It's much more plausible that he sincerely believed lead wasn't that dangerous.

I think its somewhat reasonable that he knew it had short term issues at high concentration but believed that the body would flush it out on its own. And not that any exposure caused permanent damage.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#260

Post by SilverRed »

baobabKoodaa wrote: post #190
wpietri wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America has two radically different concepts of freedom that travel under the same name. Both start with "I should be free to do as I want". One ends with "as long as I don't harm others". The other ends with "regardless of harm to others". You were dealing with the latter. It of course sounds insane when you say it baldly like this, which is why it rarely gets stated openly. But a lot of traditional societal structu…

That's a strawman. There's literally no-one on earth saying "I should be free to do as I want regardless of harm to others".

They don't say it out loud. But they act based on that principal.
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