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Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#441

Post by Steltek »

academia_hack wrote: post #430
Causality1 wrote: post #290

Police have accused Ms Chow of inciting subversion, her lawyers said. The absolute genius of the CCP isn't that they're cracking down on Hong Kong and domestic democratic movements. The brilliant part is spending the last forty years forging a culture that approves of it. Many Westerners perceive the Chinese populace as ignorant of what their government does. That is not true. Speak to some international students som…

This is only half true. Many of my Chinese friends, especially affluent ones who have spent time abroad, both know and hate what Xi is doing to their country. Behind closed doors and or while walking in parks in Shanghai and Beijing I've spoken with people who still mourn friends lost in Tiananmen, who found Xi's removal of term limits deeply unsettling, and who dream of religious freedom in Tibet and Xinjiang. China…

History is not optimistic about quiet pushes for progressivism and civil rights. This is not even a western bias: if you really want change, it's going get rough before it gets better.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#442

Post by kayxspre »

teawrecks wrote: post #216
ekianjo wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not really. those neighbors have absolutely no trust in China. There is history too between these countries in Asia.

Politics isn't that simple. Not everyone in those countries feels the same way or is being paid by the same people. Even in HK where citizens regularly fill the streets to openly protest Chinese influence, the HK govt has many Chinese sympathizers who are trying to ensure the situation shakes out in China's favor.

This mirrors what happened in Thailand as well. While the younger generations (90s or after) want to see a better and fair politics, many people involving in politics nowadays are more likely to support Chinese influence (infrastructure, pandemic response, among others). In fact, when its embassy published an op-ed bashing Thai people for diminishing the efficiency of COVID-19 vaccine it supplied to Thailand, there are some Thai people who actually gave apology on behalf of the fellow Thais, despite their series implying that face masks from Thailand have a low quality.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#443

Post by belter »

JackeJR wrote: post #356
MangoCoffee wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its sad. when Sun Yat-sen the father of modern China take on the Qing dynasty. Hong Kong was the base. It wasn't part of China and a lot of Chinese who is educated under the British rule understand what Sun try to achieve. a modern and free country. Hong Kong have been a base for a lot of progressive Chinese. Now that Hong Kong is fully back into China and the 50 years of no changes (for Hong Kong) promised by Deng X…

Some think that if the US extended their protection to Taiwan, Beijing would not attempt to take Taiwan. Let's just assume for a moment that the US will fight off attacks by China to take Taiwan. And that US successfully ward off an attack. What next? What is there to prevent China from trying again and again and again? Will the US be prepared to ward off attacks after attacks after attacks? This is unlikely to happe…

From a tactical point a view it looks a minor issue, except of course for the people of Taiwan. I cannot imagine what somebody in Taiwan, born and raised in a democracy, might be thinking when looking at what is happening in Hong Kong

From the Strategic point of view, you have to look at a map to see what that would mean. China would take over Taiwan, and immediately expand its sea island building around its borders. Cut off the Philippines and Japan across the South China Sea. From Taiwan a fighter jet can be over Japan in 10 min. Australia with its rich mineral resources and empty spaces would be next...

That the US, Australia, Japan together not make it clear to China invading Taiwan would mean a price not worth paying, will prove to be the Strategic blunder of this Century.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#444

Post by belter »

kunagi7 wrote: post #9

The Chinese Government is speeding up their efforts to swallow Hong Kong and Macau into the Mainland. Closing the media outlets, museums, websites that speak against them. And a few key people get abducted here and there to scare more people and force them to accept the Beijing Regime. But... The people from Hong Kong still demonstrates and tries to fight for their lost rights.

Aided by the finest Silicon Valley intelligentsia:

"Apple Removes App That Helps Hong Kong Protesters Track the Police"

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/09/technology/apple-hong-kon...

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#445

Post by samus »

Aeolun wrote: post #222
nl wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue is, the CCP sees Taiwan as theirs when in reality China belongs to Taiwan. What on earth is this supposed to mean? I'm no fan of the Chinese government, but trying to claim it is illegitimate seems a pretty big stretch.

> I'm no fan of the Chinese government, but trying to claim it is illegitimate seems a pretty big stretch. That’s exactly what the Chinese government is doing though. Isn’t that a bit of a stretch too? China claims Taiwan just as Taiwan (more or less seriously, but I doubt with any will to ever try and recover it) claims China. Or more like they both claim to be the legitimate government of greater China.

The current status quo depends on the PRC pretending that Taiwan is ruled by a regional government, while the Taiwanese government has restricted its actual scope to Taiwan. To this effect, in 1991 Taiwan has added articles to its constitution to account for the fact that its government has only control over the "Taiwan Area".

The actual policy of the Taiwanese government depends on who is in charge at the moment. The Pan-Blue Coalition favors reunification, while the Pan-Green Coalition tries to assert a separate Taiwanese national identity.

The claim on the rest of China is still there, but only because it cannot be dropped in practice. The PRC would interpret dropping the claim on the rest of China as a declaration of Secession and Independence, which would have diplomatic and possibly military consequences.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#446

Post by dforrestwilson »

smegger001 wrote: post #367
dforrestwilson wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan would care a lot if China made a move on Taiwan. They recently strengthened defense ties there. Wouldn't just be the U.S. Oh, and two of the above mentioned countries have real blue water navies that can go anywhere to cut supply lines like say, oil from the Middle East. One does not.

the thing is Taiwan can't count on the US as we have demonstrated that we aren't willing to help when called on by a nation we have treaty obligations to. The US agreed to defend Ukraine from Russia in event of invasion in exchange for Ukraine getting rid of its nuclear stockpile. Then Russia invaded the Crimean peninsula, part of Ukraine, and the US did nothing. Why would the US treat Taiwan any differently when Chi…

TSMC.

We legit need their semi production for defense much more than we need cheap plastic kids toys at Walmart.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#447

Post by dforrestwilson »

dirtyid wrote: post #418
dforrestwilson wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Japan would care a lot if China made a move on Taiwan. They recently strengthened defense ties there. Wouldn't just be the U.S. Oh, and two of the above mentioned countries have real blue water navies that can go anywhere to cut supply lines like say, oil from the Middle East. One does not.

JP/TW had "security" dialogue that basically amounted to JP begging Taiwan for semi fabs. JP isn't going to do shit because like US they're even less capable of defending TW. JP actions has been all rhetoric. It means nothing until they commit to credible but politically expensive actions. Some notional missile force increase on Ryukyu is theatre when what's needed is massive mobilization of main islands (and put eve…

This is not your first wolf warrior post.

I don’t see a need to rebut your false claims and would encourage folks to read your comment history.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#448

Post by samus »

sudosysgen wrote: post #301
anonymousiam wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One could even argue that the agreement Great Britain had for the 100 year lease of Hong Kong was with the Nationalist (Taiwan) government and not the PRC.

In any case, the treaty is broadly illegitimate as a colonial treaty nowadays.

Whether it is colonial or not does not matter for legitimacy. A blanket rejection of treaties on the basis of being colonial and unfair would invalidate all border agreements between former colonial countries.

Of course, the international community can condemn treaties and push for decolonialization, but in most cases this is foiled by the refusal of the colonial power to give up the claim. Examples: Falkland islands, West Sahara, Goa (reconquered by India using military force).

In many cases, it is advantegeous for both parties to seek a peaceful decoloniazation treaty, which becomes a part of international law and formal basis for the future claim on the decolonized territory.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#449

Post by analognoise »

Dah00n wrote: post #439
analognoise wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whose voice is getting quashed in the US? Everyone has a Facebook, Twitter, email, phones, a magazine, protests, their own news channels, subReddits. What group doesn't have all those things? Whose voice is being quashed - exactly? Even straight up Nazis have websites, newsletters, gatherings, organized protest marches and Facebook pages. The fucking Taliban is on Twitter. So...who is being quashed because of their b…

Having a voice doesn't not equal being heard. Especially not if you define A Voice as writing on Facebook or Twitter. You might as well stand on a box in the dead parts of Detroit and talk politics. Being heard in a democratic country means your vote matters.

Nobody has the right to "be heard"! That's the thing. You have the right to scream it out loud, but nobody is forced to stand there and listen.

No - you can't falsely equate "being heard" by being on FB and Twitter to voting.

If my neighbor starts screaming Nazi talking points, I have the right to walk away. They still have the right to scream them.

Buy Facebook isn't "forced" to carry their views, either! And the Nazi believes what they're saying, so to ensure they're heard, they launch their OWN websites, print their own newsletters, and show up at protests.

No. Just No. Nobody is forced to carry anyone else's speech, and only people so weak in their beliefs as to "give up" when banned by FB and Twitter are complaining.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#450

Post by dragontamer »

dTal wrote: post #434
blagie wrote: post #431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I predict: 1) China won't attack Taiwan until it can be assured a swift victory. 2) China will reach that state within our lifetimes. WWII was won, in part, by US manufacturing prowess. China has that advantage. It's military is currently behind in equipment, but if it chose to, it could build a blue water navy or whatever else it wants in record time. It also has the political ability to engage in major projects lik…

Carriers are already obsolete in a superpower war. Both sides possess weapons that can destroy them utterly from a great distance, and their location cannot be kept secret. Carriers won't last a day.

China's hypersonic missiles have shorter range than an F35 launched from a carrier with midair refuel drone.

The only issue is that we'd want our carriers closer in practice. Close to the action means faster response times. If we are willing to destroy Chinese satellites, then China's kill chain becomes much harder.

I'm not convinced that a drone or spyplane can reliably penetrate the defensive line of destroyers + cruisers + E2 Hawkeyes.

And satellites aren't even that reliable either, it may be possible to hide a carrier between satellite flyovers in practice.

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