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Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#281

Post by [deleted] »

bawolff wrote: post #169
Yeroc wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah, but China holds all the financial levers to keep everyone in their place. If there were a war there'd be no "Made in China" goods being exported. Take a look around you and think about that for a few minutes. They can get away with almost anything. The only thing they fear is an internal uprising.

> If there were a war there'd be no "Made in China" goods being exported. Who are you kidding? If there was a full scale china vs usa war, there would be nobody left to import the goods either.

[deleted]

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#282

Post by refenestrator »

tg180 wrote: post #66
pphysch wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Foreign-backed regime change operations are rather separatist in my humble opinion

The growing unrest amongst students, people and the political elite was caused by divisions within the party. Deng Xiaoping believed in the need of absolute authority. The death of general secretary Hu Yaobang (a reformist) fueled anxieties about the future of the country. Foreign-backed regime change??

Deng was actually in the middle between the hardliners and reformists, from accounts I've read. He wasn't officially head of the party anymore, and there was stalemate for a few days about how to handle the protests before Deng finally weighed in with 'enough is enough'.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#283

Post by sangnoir »

systemvoltage wrote: post #263
xnyan wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I could be wrong, but I don’t think you’re really giving it a good faith effort to look at this from the eyes of China. Imagine it in your head: the senior intelligence officer walks into the briefing room and says “The United States has placed their nuclear missiles in Taiwan, but don’t worry - that’s exactly the same as Russia having missiles, or India having done some nuclear tests and maybe having a shitty delive…

As a counter, I could imagine this to be alarming if hypothetically US is openly interested in invading Mexico who is allied with China. China then decides to place nuclear arsenal near Mexico city to defend it. This would be far less alarming than China initiating placement of nukes in Mexico without any intention from US to invade Mexico. The subtle difference is offense vs. defense. If China openly agrees with the…

> The subtle difference is offense vs. defense.

China got antsy, and vociferously complained about plans for the US to supply South Korea with advanced radar defense system (THAAD)[1], which China contended would extend into Chinese airspace. Radar, which is on paper, purely for defense. Nukes will be 2+ orders of magnitude worse.

1. https://www.uscc.gov/research/chinas-response-us-south-korea...

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#284

Post by [deleted] »

MangoCoffee wrote: post #279
kunagi7 wrote: post #9

The Chinese Government is speeding up their efforts to swallow Hong Kong and Macau into the Mainland. Closing the media outlets, museums, websites that speak against them. And a few key people get abducted here and there to scare more people and force them to accept the Beijing Regime. But... The people from Hong Kong still demonstrates and tries to fight for their lost rights.

its sad. when Sun Yat-sen the father of modern China take on the Qing dynasty. Hong Kong was the base. It wasn't part of China and a lot of Chinese who is educated under the British rule understand what Sun try to achieve. a modern and free country. Hong Kong have been a base for a lot of progressive Chinese. Now that Hong Kong is fully back into China and the 50 years of no changes (for Hong Kong) promised by Deng X…

[deleted]

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#285

Post by dforrestwilson »

dirtyid wrote: post #280
ranger207 wrote: post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wargames are designed to be lost. It's not as useful to say "welp we stomped all over them" as it is to push the forces being tested further and further until they break, then fixing or compensating where it broke and pushing even further. Wargames aren't constrained by reality, and the game's opposing force may be more powerful than in reality. Just hearing that the US lost a wargame doesn't mean anything without kn…

Sure, but you can also examine recent US defense proposals / thinktank wonks gaming out indo pacific strategy, i.e. AGILE deployment in Japan, hosting IRBMs in region. The overwhelming pattern and prevailing consensus for those that follow the space is that despite proposals being aspirational / borderline geopolitical fantasy, US blobs aren't even pretending to pursue strategies that explicitly defend TW anymore. Fo…

Japan would care a lot if China made a move on Taiwan. They recently strengthened defense ties there.

Wouldn't just be the U.S.

Oh, and two of the above mentioned countries have real blue water navies that can go anywhere to cut supply lines like say, oil from the Middle East. One does not.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#286

Post by sebmellen »

stingrae wrote: post #271
hker wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it were true, China would not have delayed its Anti-Sanctions Law in Hong Kong [1]. Hong Kong is huge in supporting the Finance of China. > But the Hong Kong government can only welcome the stock listing opportunity to reinforce Hong Kong as the world’s premier IPO destination, especially at a time when the introduction of the national security law has raised concerns about maintaining the city as a global financi…

At a very simple level you can compare the GDP of PRC=$14.72T vs the GDP of HK=$349.5B from 2020.

But that is a myopic comparison. The strategic value of Hong Kong’s (semi)-open capital markets is that they act as a conduit between a totalitarian isolationist state and the rest of the world.

The US’s capital markets support international trade in a somewhat similar way, and are thus innately valuable even without accounting for the productivity of American workers.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#287

Post by slapfrog »

systemvoltage wrote: post #227
mthoms wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So China will only nuke 60% of the US population instead of the 90% casualties we will inflict on them? Huzzah! That will show 'em!

There is also the US National Missile Defense: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_national_missile...

I suggest you read the article you linked carefully. Follow the links to the articles of each of the constituent programs, and read those articles carefully with a critical eye. Pay particular attention to the number of interceptors those programs actually have, the type of missile those systems are designed to intercept, and the locations of the installations. You can use the "measure distance" tool on google maps to plot out great arcs to get an idea of what sort of threat those installations are meant to counter.

I'll sum it up for you: The US has some defense against countries like North Korea. Not against Russia, nor even China. But don't take my word for it, read those articles carefully, paying attention to the details.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#288

Post by [deleted] »

[deleted] wrote: post #284
MangoCoffee wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

its sad. when Sun Yat-sen the father of modern China take on the Qing dynasty. Hong Kong was the base. It wasn't part of China and a lot of Chinese who is educated under the British rule understand what Sun try to achieve. a modern and free country. Hong Kong have been a base for a lot of progressive Chinese. Now that Hong Kong is fully back into China and the 50 years of no changes (for Hong Kong) promised by Deng X…

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#289

Post by ethbr0 »

nullc wrote: post #224
nl wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The issue is, the CCP sees Taiwan as theirs when in reality China belongs to Taiwan. What on earth is this supposed to mean? I'm no fan of the Chinese government, but trying to claim it is illegitimate seems a pretty big stretch.

> What on earth is this supposed to mean? The Republic of China was the government of China from 1912 until 1949 when it was overthrown by the CCP and retreated to Taiwan. Until at least 1971 the UN recognized it as the legitimate government of all of China. The poster's comment is outdated, but that's the historical background -- and why it's less crazy than you might have assumed without knowing the history.

I remember my mind being blown when I read about internal Taiwanese politics and learned that both parties are more or less anti-independence.

The liberals / doves think it would provoke China, and be too high a price to pay for something that's already de facto truth.

But the conservatives / hawks argue against it because they deny the legitimacy of the PRC, so why would Taiwan need to declare it's independence from rebels in its own country?

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#290

Post by Causality1 »

Police have accused Ms Chow of inciting subversion, her lawyers said.

The absolute genius of the CCP isn't that they're cracking down on Hong Kong and domestic democratic movements. The brilliant part is spending the last forty years forging a culture that approves of it. Many Westerners perceive the Chinese populace as ignorant of what their government does. That is not true. Speak to some international students some time. They're fully aware of what the CCP does, and they agree with it. To them, national unity and tranquility really is worth throwing dissidents and activists into prison or just disappearing them.

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