Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum • Hacker News Board

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#111

Post by ctdonath » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 10:30 PM UTC

bellyfullofbac wrote: post #59

TacticalCoder wrote: post #54

[flagged]

Reading this, I find it funny how so many people have an image of their "enemies" in their minds and laugh at the idiocy they've mentally constructed for these enemies.

Reading this, I find it funny how way back in the heyday of Usenet it dawned on me "people really believe this stuff!", for a wide array of stuff.

Yes, many people do construct a mental strawman and take great pleasure in assigning & attacking it. It's also interesting how many actually do believe such strawman-like absurdities in earnest. Yes, there are people who construct an image of "but real communism has never been tried!" types and impute the term so they can attack; there are also people who truly believe "but real communism has never been tried!".

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#112

Post by godelski » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 10:31 PM UTC

Gray0Ed wrote: post #35

masterof0 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How? Another war? I'm having a hard time believing the economic elite in the US will be in favor of loosing business in China.

Sponsor relocation to US/UK/Taiwan for any HK citizen who wants it? HK will have 0 value to China if every educated person leaves it.

It isn't exactly easy to leave your country, family, friends, and entire life behind. The UK did make it easier for HKers to get visas and relocation, but I think efforts like this only go so far in practice. Not enough people want to leave until it is too late. Because, and it is hard to blame them, they hope that their home will end up being saved by the many people fighting to preserve it. Leaving, in a way, is giving up.

We should also note that with the growth of Shenzhen and other mega cities, HK isn't that important to China anymore. That's part of why they've become more aggressive in the situation.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#113

Post by refenestrator » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 10:31 PM UTC

Dig1t wrote: post #93

kaladin-jasnah wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Interesting. Never heard this before. Can you provide sources to back this up?

Maybe not what you're asking for but here is a perfect example of the misinformation that is spread by the CCP https://worldaffairs.blog/2019/06/02/tiananmen-square-massac...

The tagline "objective, nonpartisan and insightful" on 'World Affairs' really brings it home.

The Chinese government obviously has its own propaganda, but being anti-China is objective and nonpartisan in the US. It's not taking sides, it's just the natural state of affairs, the entire media thinks so, both kinds of it.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#114

Post by cabalamat » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 10:32 PM UTC

ff7c11 wrote: post #38

brnt wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Western countries irrevocably recognizing Taiwan would be a start.

Don't do this. People live in Taiwan. It's not fair to use them as pawns. Keep the status quo rather than provoke war and chaos.

I bet loads of people said the same thing when Britain and France gave the Sudetenland to Germany. That didn't work out very well for them, and it was only because Germany and Russia fell out and fought each other that Britain won that war; if not for that it's entirely possible that democracy would not have survived at the world would be a very different place today.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#115

Post by asdff » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 10:32 PM UTC

GekkePrutser wrote: post #81

karaterobot wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tariffs? We tried a trade war, and it had some economic effect, but no lasting political effect. We probably don't want to get involved in another land war in Asia, if we can avoid it. We could try asking them nicely, but beyond that I feel like it's up to the people of China to decide their own fate.

A land war against China over Hong Kong would be ridiculous. They have the entire country as a base. The western countries would have to fly/sail everything in. Not to mention the legal situation. It's their soil already. It would be an invasion. Against another superpower no less. Really bad idea. And China can hurt the city enough by just turning the water off. It will only hurt the people of Hong Kong more. No, th…

Western countries probably wouldn't land any ground forces but instead form a naval blockade all along the china sea and use their air superiority to deindustrialize the country.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#116

Post by Yeroc » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 10:32 PM UTC

asdff wrote: post #105

kunagi7 wrote: post #9

The Chinese Government is speeding up their efforts to swallow Hong Kong and Macau into the Mainland. Closing the media outlets, museums, websites that speak against them. And a few key people get abducted here and there to scare more people and force them to accept the Beijing Regime. But... The people from Hong Kong still demonstrates and tries to fight for their lost rights.

If Beijing ever martyrs the protestors like tianeman again I don't think the world will take kindly to that at all. I even think russia would join an american coalition. China has no strong allies that wouldn't prefer to spare themselves in the event of worldwide intervention and they can't fight off the entire developed world alone no matter how far they came in recent decades.

Ah, but China holds all the financial levers to keep everyone in their place. If there were a war there'd be no "Made in China" goods being exported. Take a look around you and think about that for a few minutes. They can get away with almost anything. The only thing they fear is an internal uprising.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#117

Post by mc32 » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 10:32 PM UTC

asdff wrote: post #105

kunagi7 wrote: post #9

The Chinese Government is speeding up their efforts to swallow Hong Kong and Macau into the Mainland. Closing the media outlets, museums, websites that speak against them. And a few key people get abducted here and there to scare more people and force them to accept the Beijing Regime. But... The people from Hong Kong still demonstrates and tries to fight for their lost rights.

If Beijing ever martyrs the protestors like tianeman again I don't think the world will take kindly to that at all. I even think russia would join an american coalition. China has no strong allies that wouldn't prefer to spare themselves in the event of worldwide intervention and they can't fight off the entire developed world alone no matter how far they came in recent decades.

You are too optimistic.

The US got too involved in too many wars for the wrong reasons and we got weary of them. China sees this as a weakness (admittedly).

If the US does not flinch, no one else will and we won’t and no one else will.

We know terrible things are happening en masse in Xinjiang, Iran does terrible things to dissidents, north Korea does terrible things.

China and N Korea have nukes. Iran is close. In the and no one will do anything if they decide to fully bare their teeth.

Economically it’s a “commons” no one is willingly going to leave because it’s leaving too much money on the table. In a globalized world, companies really heavily influence foreign policy. These companies want the printer to stay on.

They may do themselves in, but that’s on them.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#118

Post by labster » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 10:33 PM UTC

asdff wrote: post #105

kunagi7 wrote: post #9

The Chinese Government is speeding up their efforts to swallow Hong Kong and Macau into the Mainland. Closing the media outlets, museums, websites that speak against them. And a few key people get abducted here and there to scare more people and force them to accept the Beijing Regime. But... The people from Hong Kong still demonstrates and tries to fight for their lost rights.

If Beijing ever martyrs the protestors like tianeman again I don't think the world will take kindly to that at all. I even think russia would join an american coalition. China has no strong allies that wouldn't prefer to spare themselves in the event of worldwide intervention and they can't fight off the entire developed world alone no matter how far they came in recent decades.

Yes, the US and its allies will send very strongly worded letters to China if that happens, along with its order for ten million more iPhones.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#119

Post by refenestrator » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 10:34 PM UTC

serf wrote: post #96

ff7c11 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't do this. People live in Taiwan. It's not fair to use them as pawns. Keep the status quo rather than provoke war and chaos.

> Don't do this. People live in Taiwan. It's not fair to use them as pawns. Keep the status quo rather than provoke war and chaos. until what point? inaction is generally one of the biggest causes of death and suffering in historical warfare.

That's really easy to say when it's not you or your kids on the front line.

Beyond just Taiwan, the last cold war kept the third world in a constant state of proxy war between the major powers, costing millions of lives in the short-term and delaying development in the long term.

Worth considering if you're in favor of more of that in the name of human rights.

Re: Hong Kong: Police Raid Tiananmen Square Museum

#120

Post by asdff » Thu, Sep 09, 2021, 10:34 PM UTC

RcouF1uZ4gsC wrote: post #50

The power balance between the US, UK, and China in 1984 was far more in favor of the US and the UK than it is now and they still caved to Chinese demands vis a vis Hong Kong. Given the state of global power balance now, there is not a chance in hell that any of the West will do anything (except maybe words) to support the Hong Kong.

In 1984 China was part of the warsaw pact and well allied. Who will stand up to chinas defence in the face of an american coalition today? Russia would honestly probably join the american coaliton.